Masculine psychology

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Masculine psychology

Postby Gaydudelaf » Sun Jun 05, 2011 2:40 am

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Re: Masculine psychology

Postby DerWanderer » Sun Jun 05, 2011 3:05 am

Oh how tempting to pull out my infamous red proofreading pen and go to town... :twisted:

Some psychobabble...irrelevant theological discourses...a random and woeful attempt at a literature search...(perhaps unannotated pseudo-bibliography would be a better term)...varying degrees of bias...and even some valid points...ugh what an absolute mess.
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Re: Masculine psychology

Postby Earl Butz » Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:12 am

I agree there is much more variety when it comes to men. There's a whole spectrum from Richard Simmons to Arnold Schitzenswigger.

Psychology is a fascinating topic. It was one of my options in college. It just made my accounting major seem all the more boring. :?
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Re: Masculine psychology

Postby Gaydudelaf » Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:22 am

I figured this group would have some interesting conversation come from this.
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Re: Masculine psychology

Postby olywaguy » Sun Jun 05, 2011 10:12 am

I don't disagree with the fact that a father's presence and participation with the raising of children is essential whether the child is male or female. Of course a male is heavily influenced by his father just like a daughter is heavily influenced by their mother as mentors to provide guidance on gender identity.

I think a lot of the problems that I have seen (I work at a college library so see a lot of twenty-somethings) in young people today has to do with the fact there wasn't a father in the home. So many young people come from divorced families or the father just left the family, etc. I have heard from young people the intense hatred they have had towards their father...its incredible. As a result, what has developed is a respect toward women and none for men...any men. They are more bound to listen to women than men.

For some reason or another, men are no longer participating in the family unit...getting involved in child raising...actually it has become quite rare.

I grew up with both parents. Nowadays that is considered some sort of freak thing when at one time was the norm. I know I benefited a great deal from his presence even though we may not always have gotten along. I do love my dad and appreciate his influence over my life.

How appropriate that a conversation about masculine influence is being discussed the month of Father's Day. Yes, check out that thread somewhere on the Board and there is a great deal of hatred towards members' dads.
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Re: Masculine psychology

Postby nimby » Sun Jun 05, 2011 7:06 pm

I've read some of Guy Corneau's work. Very enlightening. His work was a huge help to me in my dealing with my sexual identity. I grew up with out a father (he died very young) and Guy's work, I feel was written just about me. For me it was very profound.

His book, "Absent Fathers, Lost Sons... The Search For Masculine Identity" was an excellent read and I've lent it out to many guys. All feel that it help them understand why they are the way they are. He talks on many men's issues including addiction, overachievement and even homosexuality (that chapter appropriately named Michael), and how a father doesn't have to be physically absent to be absent. I highly reccomend it.
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Re: Masculine psychology

Postby catapult » Sun Jun 05, 2011 11:23 pm

Yes, I also recommend Absent Fathers, Lost Sons by Guy Corneau. Helped me a lot and really hit home. I had a present, but absent Father.

I think that was the book that concluded with, "Homosexuality is a longing for the Father." Hmmm? Makes some sense. But does that make it a dysfunction?

Richard Isay's "Being Homosexual" was also good, although it has been some time since I read it.
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Re: Masculine psychology

Postby Earl Butz » Mon Jun 06, 2011 2:37 am

Yeah that father thread is a great read. I just read it again.

I never hated my dad. I loved him. I just wish he had loved me back. Unconditionally.

Single parent families and children of divorce are another ball of wax. Lots of sad stories there. Weak families make for a weak society.
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Re: Masculine psychology

Postby DerWanderer » Mon Jun 06, 2011 7:58 am

I would be inclined to echo what Carlos has pointed out in his observations at the library. I also suspect I may have posted in that earlier thread, or perhaps its predecessor in an earlier incarnation of the board.

My father is one of my least favorite people in the world. If not currently in a state of simmering hate, although that's been there in the past, I have a fairly intense dislike of the man, tempered in no small part by the fact that he was an abusive ass for 16 years until I finally had had enough and walked out on him.

Call it the whims of fate, but losing Mom a couple years back didn't improve my disposition much. As predisposed as I may be to bouts of cold, ruthless logic, there was just something seemingly unfair about the bastard surviving while the good person left us far too young.

Have my experiences left me entirely right in the head? Oh, probably not, (just ask Chip, he'll confirm that I'm entirely nuts...) but at the same time I can take some solace in the fact that there is very little in the world I'm not capable of dealing with. And I can take an almost perverse delight in knowing that he can exert no control over me and that my choices are my own.

As an odd observational aside...I wonder what part this plays in my fairly extreme aloofness when it comes to authority figures...Hmm.
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Re: Masculine psychology

Postby nimby » Mon Jun 06, 2011 4:35 pm

What I really liked about Corneau is that, although homosexuality may have a basis in the relationships we had with our fathers, he did not offer a "cure". He felt that it was not something to be cured, but rather because it makes up a big part of who we are today, better to understand it and embrace it for who we are.
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Re: Masculine psychology

Postby catapult » Mon Jun 06, 2011 5:32 pm

nimby wrote:What I really liked about Corneau is that, although homosexuality may have a basis in the relationships we had with our fathers, he did not offer a "cure". He felt that it was not something to be cured, but rather because it makes up a big part of who we are today, better to understand it and embrace it for who we are.


But why would you want to embrace the outcome a dysfunctional or abusive relationship?

If I have some dysfunction because my Mother or Father were alcoholics, should I embrace that dysfunction?

If I have a personality trait or a dysfunction because I was abused by my parents, should I embrace that?

So, if I am Gay because my Father was absent or rejected or belittled me, do I embrace it?

This is a scary theory. I'd rather reject it. I mean I'd rather believe that God made me this way, not my Father.

You can see why the Exodus folks and religious folks preach this one. It fits a lot of us. They can say it was our Fathers who made us Gay and we just need positive male role models and relationships to be cured.
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Re: Masculine psychology

Postby nimby » Mon Jun 06, 2011 6:35 pm

Who said, "dysfunctional or abusive relationship"? I sure didn't. Whether we like it or not, we are a product of our parents, either good or bad. There are many traits that arise out of our parental relationships. If embracing homosexualuty helps one to cope with a sense of loss or loneliness, why not embrace it? It's all about healing your soul, and different paths help different wounds.

Now no one knows why some are gay and some aren't. It's the ol'd nature versus nurture debate. I think it's a mix of both. Now I've said this before, and I'll say it again. IF some scientist prooves that homosexuality is purely genetic, I guaranty you that there will be some medical entrepneurs who will gladly eradicate the gay gene from your family for generations to come. So be very careful what you wish for, cause you may just get it.
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Re: Masculine psychology

Postby edu999 » Mon Jun 06, 2011 7:36 pm

I tend to fall squarely into the "nature" camp, instead of "nurture".

I was raised by my mom, because my parents split when I was young. But they stayed friends, and my father was a constant presence in my life (weekends, holidays... that sort of thing). Extended family on my dad's side was traditional but not religious. On my mom's side it was dogmatic Catholic, with my mom being the exception in that she was (still is) agnostic. Great relationship with both of my parents. I'm gay.

My partner, on the other hand, grew up in a very traditional rural East Coast family. Mom religious, dad not. Typical idealized rural American childhood where mom stayed at home and took care of the house, while dad worked. Took the kids to ball games, to go hunting, fishing and camping. Parents still together to this day. Great relationship with both parents. He's gay.
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Re: Masculine psychology

Postby catapult » Mon Jun 06, 2011 9:21 pm

nimby wrote:Who said, "dysfunctional or abusive relationship"? I sure didn't. Whether we like it or not, we are a product of our parents, either good or bad. There are many traits that arise out of our parental relationships. If embracing homosexualuty helps one to cope with a sense of loss or loneliness, why not embrace it? It's all about healing your soul, and different paths help different wounds.


Sorry, I wasn't assuming your relationship with your parents was dysfunctional or abusive. And I hope there are enough stories like yours and edu999's that disprove this theory that Gays are just the product of a bad or absent relationship with the Father. But there are a lot of Gays who did indeed have bad or absent relationships with their Fathers. Maybe a lot of Straights did also.

My Father was sorta "absent" and missing emotionally. I definitely remember my first longings for men came about when I was a very young boy, and they weren't sexual longings. They were definitely a longing for and an attraction to older boys or young men to provide comfort, care, protection, love and affection - things that were missing in my relationship with my Father.

So when Corneau says Homosexuality is a longing for the Father, it fit my bill and shook me to think that maybe being Gay was a dysfunction caused by my lack of nurturing from my Father.

It's nice to know that it didn't fit yours or edu999's and therefore it demonstrates that there are many factors that come into play in the Nuture component and there's still room for the Nature component.

Not to mention the Karma component. And that can be unfathomable.
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Re: Masculine psychology

Postby Earl Butz » Tue Jun 07, 2011 2:09 am

There seems to be a new trend these days (and it happened today) where a bunch of idiots go around a neighborhood and slash everyone's tires. There's your proof right there of no male role models.

When I was a kid, you didn't dare do crap like that or dad would kill you. Literally. :?
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Re: Masculine psychology

Postby Rico » Tue Jun 07, 2011 4:20 pm

catapult wrote:So when Corneau says Homosexuality is a longing for the Father, it fit my bill and shook me to think that maybe being Gay was a dysfunction caused by my lack of nurturing from my Father.

It's nice to know that it didn't fit yours or edu999's and therefore it demonstrates that there are many factors that come into play in the Nuture component and there's still room for the Nature component.

Not to mention the Karma component. And that can be unfathomable.


Let me float this theory out there...that paternal instinct may sense "something different or wrong" about a particular male offspring very early on in life, causing the father to keep a distance. If that's the case, then it's more nature than nurture, and nurture only appears to be the factor. Not saying that's the case, just hypothesizing.
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Re: Masculine psychology

Postby nimby » Tue Jun 07, 2011 4:43 pm

I disagree. When a parent detects "something different or wrong" with their child, their parental instincts kick into overdrive and protect and assist their offspring. That's been my experience and that of most all parents I know. If a parent backs away cause their child is different or wrong, then they shouldn't have been parents in the first place.

When we were pregnant with out first child, I laid awake many nights hoping and praying for a healthy baby, but as the due date got close, I didn't care if my kid was born with a square head, no neck and hairy thumbs. It was my child, a product of my body. I would love it to the ends of the earth.

Like this guy. He is going STRAIGHT to heaven:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3aq3trkyOA

I cry every time I see this.
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Re: Masculine psychology

Postby Rico » Tue Jun 07, 2011 5:05 pm

As I said, it's simply a hypothesis...a provisional idea whose merit requires evaluation. Did I evaluate it? No. Do I care to? No. It would require years and years of work and testing, and I don't have time for it. But would I like to know the answer one way or another if scientifically tested? Yes. And by distant...I'm not talking about rejecting an offspring...I'm talking about a probably subconscious decision to keep a little more distant than what might be normal, but still nurturing.

Edited to add an interesting article I found after the original post.

http://www.narth.com/docs/fathers.html
From the article: One psychoanalytic hypothesis for the connection between poor early father-son relationship and homosexuality is that during the critical gender-identity phase of development, the boy perceives the father as rejecting. As a result, he grows up failing to fully identify with his father and the masculinity he represents.

Note that the boy only has to perceive the father as rejecting.
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Re: Masculine psychology

Postby furface » Wed Jun 08, 2011 10:06 pm

Rico:

Ya know, I assume, that NARTH (National Association for Research & Therapy of Homosexuality, formerly National Association for Research and Treatment of Homosexuality) is an anti-gay group that views homosexuality as either a bona fide mental illness and/or a deliberate choice. They are big backers and proponents of both reparative therapy and ex-gay ministries (pray-away-the-gay) such as Exodus International etc.

One of their board members was Dr. George A. Rekers, PhD. He also served as a scientific consultant for them. He was one of the founding members of the Family Research Council (FRC) currently headed by president and chief spokesbigot Tony Perkins. Rekers was the grad student at UCLA who devised and applied the therapy used in the 'Sissy Boy' experiments.

He testifioed as an expert witness in two cases recently on the side of restricting adoption/fostering by gays. One in Arkansas, the other in Florida.

2004 in Arkansas, "The trial judge, Pulaski County Circuit Court judge Timothy Fox, ruled against the state of Arkansas in December 2004. He was strongly critical of Rekers' testimony, describing it as "extremely suspect", and said that Rekers "was there primarily to promote his own personal ideology." Rekers responded by denouncing the trial as "utterly corrupt.""

2008 in Florida, "Miami-Dade Circuit Court Judge Cindy Lederman ruled against the state. In her decision, she said "Dr. Rekers’ testimony was far from a neutral and unbiased recitation of the relevant scientific evidence. Dr. Rekers’ beliefs are motivated by his strong ideological and theological convictions that are not consistent with the science. Based on his testimony and demeanor at trial, the court cannot consider his testimony to be credible nor worthy of forming the basis of public policy.""

FL DCF was aware of Reker's prior testimony in Arkansas and didn't want him as their witness, however, the Attorney General overruled them and put him in. After the trial/appeal was over he was found returning from a European vacation with his 'luggage lifter' contracted through rentboy.com.

The states lost both cases.

I'd sooner believe the Aryan Brotherhood about prison reform than anything from NARTH regards homosexuality.
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Re: Masculine psychology

Postby furface » Wed Jun 08, 2011 10:16 pm

Here's the thread Earl authored about Fathers for those who might wish to review it.
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Re: Masculine psychology

Postby nimby » Thu Jun 09, 2011 4:16 pm

Rico wrote:Edited to add an interesting article I found after the original post.

http://www.narth.com/docs/fathers.html


A very interesting article chock full of useful information, Rico. This is pure raw data. One cannot desregard it because some wack jobs want to use it to push their own political agenda. If one does try to discredit the data, it would be like saying the experiences of these young men don't matter. Attack the manipulators of the data but ot the raw data itself. All experiences are valid.

NARTH an Dr. George Rekers should be exposed for the hate group they are, just like the Aryan Brotherhood? But I guess they have a right to exist too. Pity.
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Re: Masculine psychology

Postby Rico » Thu Jun 09, 2011 5:28 pm

furface wrote:Ya know, I assume, that NARTH (National Association for Research & Therapy of Homosexuality, formerly National Association for Research and Treatment of Homosexuality) is an anti-gay group that views homosexuality as either a bona fide mental illness and/or a deliberate choice. They are big backers and proponents of both reparative therapy and ex-gay ministries (pray-away-the-gay) such as Exodus International etc.

You know that there isn't a thing you said that I disagree with about NARTH. You are right on all counts and it made my skin crawl to link to the article, but it was the first one I found that talked about very early father v. non-masculine son relationships. I could have found a more reputable source that would contain similar observations. Regardless, these early relationships are significant when the topics are masculine psychology and the development of sexual identity.

This is where I personally come down on the whole thing:

1. Reparative therapy is not only bullshit, it's extremely dangerous.
2. In the nature vs. nurture debate, I've always believed it's both.
3. Once the "gay bell" is rung, it can't be unrung no matter how hard somebody tries, nor should it.
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Re: Masculine psychology

Postby buccoman » Fri Jun 10, 2011 8:42 am

Interesting thread. I think almost all of the theory recounted in the Wikepedia article is BS. What scientific veracity is there in suggesting that because a male is born from a female body that there are intrinsic difficulties "in becoming a man." It might sound intriguing but i ain't buying it. What's the basis for it? Does the struggle out of the womb and through the vagina somehow imprint confusion on males? It's just absurd....

I think homosexuality is mostly "nature." Different genetic coding for gay folk. I think that's where the biology is leading but it's far from definitive. As for masculinity, that's a matter of socialization, or "nurture," isn't it? Masculinity is socially constructed and has a lot of semantic variability, right?
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Re: Masculine psychology

Postby nimby » Fri Jun 10, 2011 3:31 pm

Your answers seem a little contradictory. Genetically, no, being born a male is not impossible, but for that male to develop into a masculing man, he needs to be socialized into it? That's what I got.
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