SELF LOATHING...

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How self loathing are you?

None at all. I'm Out and Proud.
24
36%
I'm not out, but I have accepted my prefs and feel little or no regrets.
28
42%
I have some self loathing. Life would be easier if wish I didn't have these desires.
10
15%
I hate myself. If there was a brain operation to remove this "decease", I'd have it done right now.
4
6%
 
Total votes : 66

Postby dabonsteed » Tue Nov 09, 2004 12:40 pm

I think it's something that gradually comes over you.
I was lucky in that I thought I was bisexual for 5 years before I finally faced reality. I had books, did speeches, informed the masses about how "there is such a thinig as a bisexual, damnit!" and then I turned out to not be one. :o
I've been officially "out" for 4 years now. Moving to Chicago has helped immensely. In some ways it made it harder. but I'm a bit of a die-hard optimist and stubborn as a mule.
Just about all of the masculine men I know are...well....here. LOL

But I do have some really good friends in real life, they're not flaming queens, they're just not all that butch. But they are caring supportive and fun so I really don't care much. But, it really took until this year to have those kinds of solid friends. So don't despair. Real friends are hard to find, no matter if you're straight or gay.

I don't date guys who aren't Out. It's just not something I'm willing to deal with. I know sometimes they need a supportive boyfriend to help them come out, well I'm just not interested. Maybe, if the right guy came along, but generally I avoid them.
I would say stick around, these guys can be so sweet.
"this is your life, are you who you want to be?"
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Postby toothync » Wed Nov 10, 2004 8:57 pm

ChunkJGZX: Right you are - I have to say I hadn't considered, or at least not examined, the thought that coming out for many people isn't the thing it was for me. As I say I live in Sydney which has a vibrant and varied community. There are about six major gay bars, clubs and pubs in Sydney and they all have their own sort of crowd. Also I have an incredibly supportive family. I'm f-ing lucky.

I was chasing a guy for a while who told me that his dad had said to his sister "I don't want to know about it." Also he is a cop which means he literally cannot be out at work. Several times I called him, the first thing he said was "I'm just out with some mates." He was really funny (peculiar) on the phone and I couldn't work out why he was being so bsuinesslike. I realised that he was out with work mates. This is a guy who is out to himself, who goes out all the time and has had several boyfriends.

What's my point... I suppose you have to feel comfortable not just with who you are right now, but with your place in everything. You can choose to see your sexuality as something which sets you apart, or something which makes you part of a whole, or even as something irrelevant to how you relate to people. It's up to you. But all I'd say is focusing on my sexuality and the problems it was causing me was what delayed my self acceptance for so long, and caused some serious depression.

When I realised I didn't care I was gay, all those camp people in the circles I moved in became friends rather than something I was not.

End Personal Philosophy 101. :goodman: :wink:

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Postby adem_nyc » Mon Nov 29, 2004 5:31 pm

I'm not out, but I have accepted my prefs and feel little or no regrets. is the option I chose.

I don't feel the need to come out to my parents and family. I'm content with the way things are.

It's been interesting being involved with a guy that's out to his family though. They're VERY accepting and unbelievably encouraging. I've never been more welcomed into a family besides my own.


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Postby matym » Mon Nov 29, 2004 10:23 pm

None at all. I'm Out and Proud.

I have struggled far too long and hard, to understand and realize the importance of my homosexuality in my life to keep it hid from everyone else.

In addition, I came out because of a spiritual answer to who I was. That entire knowledge resolved every conflict I had with my sexuality. I not only wanted to tell everyone, I was excited to tell everyone. Everyone I knew found out within 3 days of my decision to come out. This included family, friends, church, and of course a wife and kids.

I have no problem with telling people that I am gay when it comes up in conversation. I frequently use the words boyfriend, husband, and relative terms in conversation without even thinking.

I thank God everyday that he made me a gay man with a pen1s and allowed me to enjoy who I am.

I had been inclined to regret that I didn't come out sooner but quickly realized that I can not and WILL NOT regret who I am. My experiences are the sum of who I am as a person and I love who I am. It seems to me that any amount of self-loathing is regret for who you are. I would much rather work on improving who I am than spend any amount of time, not liking who I am.
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Postby ChunkJGZX » Tue Nov 30, 2004 12:53 am

[quote="matym"]None at all. I'm Out and Proud.

I have struggled far too long and hard, to understand and realize the importance of my homosexuality in my life to keep it hid from everyone else.

I have no problem with telling people that I am gay when it comes up in conversation. I frequently use the words boyfriend, husband, and relative terms in conversation without even thinking.

I thank God everyday that he made me a gay man with a pen1s and allowed me to enjoy who I am.
quote]

I'm out too. "Proud" is a different issue--I have issues with the definitions of the word. Yeah, right now I'm ashamed and hate the fact that I'm gay, but when I came out, I had no shame at all, was very brash and confrontational and strong about being gay... but it was never a "pride" thing. Lack of shame does not equal pride. I accomplished nothing in my being gay, therefore I have nothing to be proud about. That doesn't mean I feel bad about me being gay. I'm talking about me when I used to be super-comfortable with me--never was I proud. But I always wasn't at all ashamed about it. I disagree with the use of the word.

See, I think if God (and I'm putting the responsibility in His hands for just a sec, ignoring the fact htat it's my own responsibility, which normally I know it is) allowed me to enjoy how I am (ie: if being gay EVER became anything OTHER than a limitation/restriction/disability), then I'd probably be right alongside you. Until now, it hasn't been. I'm waiting, patiently, for that to change.
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Postby Chris » Tue Nov 30, 2004 8:31 pm

Thomsen wrote:Given the choices, I picked the first. That said I don't wake up and thank God I'm gay in the morning. Not sure what I would do given a choice between gay and straight, but I wouldn't be easy either way. I'm over self-loathing, requires too much energy.


Couldn't have put it better myself.
I do wake up in the morning and think thank god I've got a b/f (who makes me coffee in the morning! :D )
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Postby deathbrinegr » Fri Dec 03, 2004 3:21 pm

I dont think i ever experienced self-loathing for my non-styraightness, probably because i always liked girls as well i saw boys as a "side show" in some way, then i read some book at school (should have been in a museum more like, heh) that said all males go through a "gay phase" when they are around 13 and 14 and would have sex with anything that moved, so i assumed i would be okay and would "get better" when i was older. Maybe when i stop being horny enough to want to have sex with anything that moves i will..heh XD
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Postby Antonkucinski » Sun Dec 05, 2004 1:09 pm

" then i read some book at school (should have been in a museum more like, heh) that said all males go through a "gay phase" when they are around 13 and 14 and would have sex with anything that moved, so i assumed i would be okay and would "get better" when i was older."

I remember reading something to this effect as well. It also said that males in this age group were generally attracted males who had the physique they wish they had for themselves and that having sex with other boys was also a way of expressing desire for emotional closeness. The point was that this was all just a phase and noting for anybody to worry about.

I figured that since

1. I wasn't even having sex with other boys at that age and had never had any opportunities that i was aware of.

2. I hated my physique.

3. I felt emotionally isolated.

4. I didn't identify at all with the outrageously feminine models of 'gay' that I had at that time.

well.....I mustn't be gay. I then put the whole issue on the back-burner and never really thought about.

If only I'd known! :)

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Postby Antonkucinski » Sun Dec 05, 2004 1:30 pm

Missed this before, sorry.

" I'm over self-loathing, requires too much energy."

*E*X*A*C*T*L*Y*!!!

Other things that require way too much energy for what you get back:

1. Being in the closet.
2. Being out.
3. Figuring out what to call your partner or b/f.
4. Keeping track of items 1-3.

I just refer to my partner as 'Tony' and let people think whatever they want. Actually, except for a few people with whom it has come up in conversation, I don't even *know* to whom I'm out at work and to whom I'm not.

I wish i could say that I do this because of emotional maturity, etc. but i can't. I have health problems that just sap so much of my energy that I have to make conscious decisions about how i spend what energy I have. Also, as I've gotten older i've come to realize that a lot of people are going to think whatever they want ANYWAY. So, it really doesn't matter what I say or do.

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Postby red bouy » Wed Dec 08, 2004 8:43 am

I'm not out at work, The industry i work in is very s8t about how they will take on, It is very white english speaking, males in the right places and females in the cooking or cleaning places. The owners do not like any thing to upset them. I worked for US owners who told us to burn the sheets after their son [gay] had slept in the bed. How ever when I can I'm alwas naked at gay beachs and bars.[some bars here have naked nights] I started out at 12 years old and have never been upset with my sex with guys, But then I have had a few girls in my time aswell. I have red heir and alwas felt that was a bigger problem.
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Postby dabonsteed » Fri Dec 17, 2004 2:08 pm

Antonkucinski wrote:Other things that require way too much energy for what you get back:

1. Being in the closet.
2. Being out.
3. Figuring out what to call your partner or b/f.
4. Keeping track of items 1-3.


I never thought of being Out as something that required energy. I guess at first it was the conscious effort to own my sexuality (instead of denying it).
But now it doesn't really require any effort. It's so matter-of-fact to me to be Out. I've said it before, I'm Out, I'm Proud, but I'm not Loud. My sexuality comes up naturally in conversation about as often as straight people's sexuality comes up. So, sometimes it's several times in a day, other times it's not at all. I always correct people when they assume I'm straight, or make a reference toward me that indicates they think I'm straight. To do otherwise is lying by omission. I'm honest in my life. If something is none of anyone's business, I tell them.
:)
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Postby AJ » Wed Jan 12, 2005 12:18 pm

I think the only time I experinced "self-loathing",was my first year here in Germany,during my first engagement and kept asking myself why I did get up off my a**,and go look for some fun.
This "self-loathing" was thrown to the wind when I finally got to my present place of residence.
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Postby Triad » Wed Jan 12, 2005 1:22 pm

The subject of crying is posted in the "effeminate men" section. After I read the posts of chunkJGZX in Self-loathing, I found myself in tears [whence the reference to the crying posts]. Why would I do that? Maybe because he came close enough to touch me and I allowed him to get that close.

Self-esteem, self-worth, self-confidence are all so intertwined and convoluted. Their absence or weakness creates the necessity for a long awkward climb back up to level ground. If self-loathing, inferiority and isolation,etc., are heaped upon your back, as well, the journey can be very long and painful. My tears are for those who are involved. Snapping your fingers and willing yourself out of the process is not an option [Jesus can't help you, that is not his job. He already did his job.]. Struggle is the only way out.

Everyone is born with self-worth, it flows like a river. Somewhere along the way, some of us dam it up and it stops the flow. We don't know how we did it. We don't know to whom we surrendered our lives and well being. We just know that all of these things are missing. We look around at others merrily skimming along enjoying life undeterred. We would give anything to be able to do that also but are virtually powerless in finding a way to do it.

Most of the downtrodden at least have the love and support of their families and community. When that is missing, far too many of the downtrodden simply remain in that condition. If I offer my hand, will it help? If I, without judging, listen to your most self-loathing tale, will it help? If I approve of you will it help? If we share a thought or a feeling, can both of us be helped? How can we find our way back to that unobstructed river of self-worth and the absence of self-loathing? Is it an individual task or is it a collective task?
Last edited by Triad on Wed Jan 12, 2005 8:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby qwertz » Wed Jan 12, 2005 5:43 pm

Triad
I think, except mistake, you mean the posts of ChunkJGZX in "Internal Affairs -- What is your struggle?" After I did read them, I was in tears as well. I wanted to react, but I didn't know how. A week long I thought about how to react, but finally I didn't. I actually didn't find the words.
He is even negative about and especially about being gay. Being gay is the very one thing that saved me from negativeness.
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Postby Triad » Wed Jan 12, 2005 8:11 pm

I meant the "Self-loathing" posts. Sorry I wasn't clear - I have since edited my post.
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Postby ChunkJGZX » Sun Jan 23, 2005 9:08 pm

qwertz wrote:Triad
I think, except mistake, you mean the posts of ChunkJGZX in "Internal Affairs -- What is your struggle?" After I did read them, I was in tears as well. I wanted to react, but I didn't know how. A week long I thought about how to react, but finally I didn't. I actually didn't find the words.
He is even negative about and especially about being gay. Being gay is the very one thing that saved me from negativeness.


I'm interested to hear more about how being gay has saved you from negativity.

I can't seem to find anything good about it. Right now, my life is completely fine--I have a lot of friends, make a good living, have a nice place, have fun often etc... but the fact that I'm gay makes all of those things almost useless. It doesn't fit, it never will, and it causes me pain. That's all being gay ever HAS done to me.

I don't see it as a fixable thing--I've spent so long feeling pain from being gay that I can't see any sequence of events (internally or externally) that'll ever make me okay with it. I'll always be bitter about it. Kinda sucks and really makes me feel like my whole life's all gonna be a waste.
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Postby nathanjones » Sun Jan 23, 2005 9:52 pm

Baby, you know I think the world of you and we both know your life is not and never has been a waste.....but as you look toward your future, you can sorta create your own destiny....you're on the right track and I have complete faith in you. Patience my boy.

XXX

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Postby devilnuts » Tue Jan 25, 2005 11:24 pm

Chris wrote:
Thomsen wrote:Given the choices, I picked the first. That said I don't wake up and thank God I'm gay in the morning. Not sure what I would do given a choice between gay and straight, but I wouldn't be easy either way. I'm over self-loathing, requires too much energy.


Couldn't have put it better myself.
I do wake up in the morning and think thank god I've got a b/f (who makes me coffee in the morning! :D )


God bless boyfriends that make coffee in the mornings. If I have to get up REALLY early for class he just gets the coffee machine the night before...LOL...that's okay, I can see enough in the morning to push the button myself.

I don't wake up and thank God that I am gay...however, I am thankful every morning when I wake up that I DID wake up. I spent my time going through the usual self loathing...hence one of my reasons for joining the USMC. Anyway, that is over and done with...I prefer to live with love not hate...both for myself and others. Jesus, I think my SA level just jumped from 2 to 5 for that comment...oh well...lmao.
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Postby qwertz » Thu Jan 27, 2005 4:05 pm

ChunkJGZX wrote:
qwertz wrote:Triad
I think, except mistake, you mean the posts of ChunkJGZX in "Internal Affairs -- What is your struggle?" After I did read them, I was in tears as well. I wanted to react, but I didn't know how. A week long I thought about how to react, but finally I didn't. I actually didn't find the words.
He is even negative about and especially about being gay. Being gay is the very one thing that saved me from negativeness.


I'm interested to hear more about how being gay has saved you from negativity.

I can't seem to find anything good about it. Right now, my life is completely fine--I have a lot of friends, make a good living, have a nice place, have fun often etc... but the fact that I'm gay makes all of those things almost useless. It doesn't fit, it never will, and it causes me pain. That's all being gay ever HAS done to me.

I don't see it as a fixable thing--I've spent so long feeling pain from being gay that I can't see any sequence of events (internally or externally) that'll ever make me okay with it. I'll always be bitter about it. Kinda sucks and really makes me feel like my whole life's all gonna be a waste.


ChunkJGZX

I don't know why I always saw my gayness as a good thing. This feeling was a point of departure which was given to me without any need for me to do whatsoever about it. It has always been a basic assumption simply given to me. I saw it as something good from the very beginning, although I was raised a catholic and although everybody around me was quite derogatory about gays. It is a mystery to me why I have always seen it like that.
My gayness gives sense to my live, more than any religion, philosophy or whatsoever could. The pure physical love and deeper love I can feel for men has always been something I cherish. As a consequence of my gayness I am rather immoderately interested in male-male love, not only to practice it, but also merely intellectually. It learned me quite a few things and has given me a slightly other connection to the world.
I think one difference between you and me may be you discovered your gayness after adolescence, while I was certain about it at 6. At 9 I was reading the Kinsey-report on male sexuality. I did read it voraciously and everything did fall in place.
I am afraid this will not help you. I know too well negativeness and how overwhelming it can be. I am often negative about life, perhaps more than you, but simply the idea men (sexually and otherwise) can play with each other, can be attracted to each other, can love each other,... gets me out of it, but again it was simply given to me in the beginning and I cann't tell you where it came from. A kind of intuition.
It is nice to learn your life is fine. I am sorry for the pain you feel. I wish you the best.
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Postby Triad » Thu Jan 27, 2005 4:42 pm

Gwertz, your post was not directed at me but I did read it with interest. You are indeed blest. I can't help believing that there are numerous boys and men who do NOT share your feelings about emerging homosexuality. You appear to be unscathed and I think you are in the minority. It is a mystery to me how you did it. Was there some support for you somewhere or is your self-worth so strong that it pushed aside all distractions? Or are you a flaming nelly [as discussed in other forums] that will get in anyone's face who gets in her way [rhetorical, I don't really think you are]?

For so many, the lid of oppression gets clamped down so tightly on their state of beiing that they become stifled. Their energies are wasted on bizaar behaviour, journeys down blind alleys and aimless wandering. The list is endless.
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Postby qwertz » Sat Jan 29, 2005 6:02 am

I know there are numerous boys and men having other feelings than me about "emerging" homosexuality. The word "emerging" sounds strange in my ears, because homosexuality never "emerged" in me. It was always there. It was there from the very beginning. But most men around me have a different story. It is puzzling.
Very young I didn't have any support. In fact I didn't need it since there was no "problem". I wasn't aware of the fact that me being attracted to my swimming teacher at 6 could be a "problem". It cleary was a sexual attraction. I kept on dreaming about the bulge in his trunks when masturbating. Yes, I masturbated at 6, but there was no semen of course. I have a vivid recollection of it, but never did feel some guilt about it. It was something in the order of things, notwithstanding a strict religious education. Since no none around ever was speaking about sex, how could I have been aware there was a "problem"? "Problems" start only when you define something as a "problem".
At 9 I was reading the Kinsey-report on male sexuality. That was the biggest help I ever had. After that simply being with the boys in my boarding school and seeing how they handled sexuality - even if they were obviously str8 - helped me. It was very easy to have sex with them though, but mostly I am only interested in men over 30 and always have been. So that was no big deal for me. Still I did read at the time "Les amitiés particulières" of Roger Peyrefitte, which is about love between two schoolboys and, altough it was not my cup of tea, I liked the book a lot. The book helped me a little bit. To me it was extremely realistic. At that time I was in a French catholic boarding school. Montherlant, an other French writer wrote a similar book: "La ville dont le prince est un enfant", but I never did read it. I hope my recollection of the title is correct.
I am extremely average. I don't have big self-esteem. My self-esteem is rather below than above average, but this has nothing to do with homosexuality. I certainly am not a flaming nelly. I am so average most people don't remember me. I never or almost never stress the fact I am gay. If asked, I say yes, although I often think it is no ones business.
I have been in parks down blind alleys, but I never sensed it as aimless. I don't understand this negativity about simply seeking sexual satisfaction. If going down dark alleys (I take it litteraly here) is aimless to you, don't do it. I really hate all that moralizing and all that guilt about simply having sex, even when it is without any feelings. When I have or had this kind of sex, I was always very aware the man in front of me was as human as everyone. Sometimes I think the negativity about anonymous sex is immoral. There is something immoral about depriving men of this experience. Anyway I never had a really bad experience with it. There is no reason to be so negative about it as we hear in general.
As for the non litteral meaning of "journeys down blind alleys" , you can write books as much as you want to about the ill-treatment of gay men by society.
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Postby solitaryman1969 » Mon Jan 14, 2008 12:54 pm

Well in my case, the self-loathing was taught at a very early age. I knew since around the age of 6 that I was gay.

I remember being fascinated by the site of naked men in the change rooms at beaches and swimming pools and realizing that I was different from everybody.

Plus going to over 13 years of catholic school didn't help either.

Having the idea of homosexuality drilled into your head that it's wrong over and over didn't make my life any easier.
(What the priests forgot to mention was those rules didn't apply to them). :?

As early as grade 1 or 2, it seemed as though everyone knew what I was without even me knowing what gay meant.

One incident that I will remember for the rest of my life was around the time I first came to Canada.

English was not my first language, and I remember sitting during a school assembly in the gym, with boys from in an older grade to the back of me.

2 of them kept asking me if I was gay, and without knowing what the word meant, responding with a solid yes.

This went on for several minutes, and it wasn't until the next day that it was brought up again by several other kids in my class, with the same teasing and laughing.

The only thing I truly remember is bawling my eyes out.

After that I made sure never to demonstrate any kind of behaviour that would have made people question my sexuality, although it never seemed to work very well. :lol:

I'm still floored when straight guys talk about their gay experiences as teenagers.

Where the hell were they when I was in school? :o

During my teens and 20's, well I tried to shut any kind of feelings and urges I had, and most importantly tried to avoid any contact with people who were gay, thinking that they could read me like an open book, which I'm sure wasn't hard to do.

Even in my early 30's was hard. I do recall one shrink who I was completely uncomfortable to open up to due to the fact she was gay.

Now that I'm quickly approaching 40, I am more comfortable with the person I am becoming, and trying to make peace with my past.

The only issue I'm currently having is getting people to believe me when I tell them I'm gay. :roll:

I believe you know in your heart if you're straight or gay, even you're still a virgin, or in my case, a semi-virgin. :lol:
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Postby lendog » Wed Feb 13, 2008 6:26 am

I always got the message that I should be proud to be out an have incredibly high self-esteem without ever addressing how I really feel. "No one likes a whiner" "We have to project a healthy image to the world"

It helped when two friends (one straight one bi) admitted their unease had to do with fear THEY might be gay (the bi one accepted his desires for men as well as women) Finally someone admitted their honest feelings to me. I thanked them for their honesty.

Self-loathing/Self-love? It's like weather for me
changes periodically
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Postby ProgPirate » Fri Jun 06, 2008 2:34 am

ChunkJGZX wrote:Hey guys--BRAND new to these forums, guys, but figured I'd start off posting right away...

It almost seems that in this whole topic, the terms "self-loathing" and "out" are mutually exclusive... As if, the moment one comes out of the closet, all those problems are solved, everything's better (I know that's not how it is for all y'all, but just seemed how the poll/discussion was pointed).

I personally have been out of the closet for two years and am still struggling with it... I live up in New Hampshire, in an area that everyone says "has a high gay population," but the gay guys I've met up here seem to be on an entirely different plane than I am. I still spend a lot of time miserable about the fact that in all the circles I socialize with, I'm always the only gay guy, always hearing the, "Oh, wow, I would've NEVER guessed!" I spend a lot of time very down about it--seriously, coming out, in retrospect, almost seems like the beginning of the end to me. In these past two years I haven't had any relationships save a couple of dates with guys who were in the closet--who soon after decided that my "out" status was too much of a liability for them to deal with. Never had anything good come out of being gay, just a lot of hurt and heartbreak and loneliness. No light at the end of the tunnel--and the worst is, no one's out there for me to talk to. I've made a couple of acquaintances who were gay, but they didn't understand how I felt, what it's like to unintentionally pass for straight but not BE straight, to have no sense of kinship with other gay people whatsoever.

It's been a major bone of contention with me for the past six months (well, it's been REALLY bad these past six months, not as bad the time before that)--it's hard not to feel like my life would be better if I were straight. I'm 24 now, and I feel like because I'm gay I miss out on all of these experiences and opportunities--good and bad--that straight people (like all of my friends) just seem to fall into. It's not that I'm not "out"--I never hold back telling people. IT's that I'm not happy about it, and I don't know how to get to that place.


This is pretty much exactly the way I feel, except I'm only 19. Hopefully in 5 years I will have met someone I can at least relate to.
ProgPirate
 
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