FLAMBOYANT MEN=THE REASON MEN STAY ON THE ""DL&quo

Talks about guys that are nellie.

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ARE FLAMBOYANT QUEENS THE REASON MEN CHOOSE TO STAY ON THE DL

Poll ended at Fri Apr 14, 2006 8:52 am

Yes it is
3
21%
No it isnt,it is other things
8
57%
It is very possible
3
21%
Not sure,but i certainly would not be surprised
0
No votes
 
Total votes : 14

Postby mijopaalmc » Fri Apr 07, 2006 8:57 pm

james wrote:When you stop acting like a little faggot.


Wow, james, that's mature, calling FfF a faggot.

I've only been here a little while and may not always agree with what FfF says, but from what I have read of his posts and seen of his avatars, he is one of the least "faggoty" guys here (not that there's any thing wrong with being faggoty, as far as I can see).

Calling people faggots is the kind of thing that severly discredits you (and DL) in the eyes of the other posters here (if I may speak for you for a minute, guys.) It simply represents a redirection of the hatred directed at all gay people towards sudvision of (and sometimes a specific individual in) the gay community. As such, it doesn't eliminate homophobia and heterosexism but merely heaps it onto individuals other yourself, making you no better than the homophobes you try to appease by living in your "social fictions" or on the DL. In fact, it uses the same homophobia and heterosexism that we all suffer under as same-sex attracted people to scapegoat what you (and I specifically mean james and DL) see as undesirable elements of the gay community.
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Postby Guest » Fri Apr 07, 2006 9:03 pm

mijopaalmc wrote:
james wrote:When you stop acting like a little faggot.


Wow, james, that's mature, calling FfF a faggot.

I've only been here a little while and may not always agree with what FfF says, but from what I have read of his posts and seen of his avatars, he is one of the least "faggoty" guys here (not that there's any thing wrong with being faggoty, as far as I can see).

Calling people faggots is the kind of thing that severly discredits you (and DL) in the eyes of the other posters here (if I may speak for you for a minute, guys.) It simply represents a redirection of the hatred directed at all gay people towards sudvision of (and sometimes a specific individual in) the gay community. As such, it doesn't eliminate homophobia and heterosexism but merely heaps it onto individuals other yourself, making you no better than the homophobes you try to appease by living in your "social fictions" or on the DL. In fact, it uses the same homophobia and heterosexism that we all suffer under as same-sex attracted people to scapegoat what you (and I specifically mean james and DL) see as undesirable elements of the gay community.


There is nothing that discredits anything i stated,just because you do not agree with anything i said does not discredit a damn thing,thats your opinion,not a fact,if you defined the actual meaning of a FAGGOT and your mannerisms are masculine than maybe that tension you have in your feelings may ease up with knowing in reality your not a FAGGOT no matter what other people state.Instead of coming down on me as if i insulted one of you all here with the word faggot,try realizing my usage of the word was for an example,if you do not like the example OH WELL,thats your problem not mine.Try getting faggots(fems)to stop using the word toward other men,before trying to get others who use it for examples to stop the word usage. :wink:
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Postby Guest » Fri Apr 07, 2006 9:07 pm

FAGGOT:century, with the origin definitely in the U.S., not Britain.

The British continued to use the words fag and faggot as nouns, verbs and adjectives right through the early 20th century, never applying it to homosexuals at any time. To fag or to be a fag was a common term in British schools from the late 1700s and referred to a lower classman who performed chores for upperclassmen. While this term was also in vogue at Harvard in the first half of the 19th century, it died out by the mid-1800s in the U.S., leaving it in use only in England. Nineteenth century Britons also heard "faggot" used in reference to an ill-tempered woman, i.e., a ball-buster, a battleaxe, a shrew. That meaning of the term continued into the early 20th century, and the usage was gradually applied to children as well as women. The relationship, if any, between faggot-as-bundle-of-sticks and faggot-as-shrewish-woman is unknown.

The first known published use of the word faggot or fag to refer to a male homosexual appeared in 1914 in the U.S. It referred to a homosexual ball where the men were dressed in drag and called them "fagots (sissies)." Ernest Hemingway, in The Sun Also Rises (1926), included the line, "You're a hell of a good guy, and I'm fonder of you than anybody on earth. I couldn't tell you that in New York. It'd mean I was a faggot." A 1921 cite says, "Androgynes [are] known as 'fairies,' 'fags,' or 'brownies.'"

George Chauncey, in his excellent 1994 work Gay New York: Gender, Urban Culture, and the Making of the Gay Male World, 1890-1940, says that the terms fairy, faggot, and queen were used by homosexuals to refer to men who were ostentatiously effeminate. Homosexuals who were not as showy referred to themselves as "queer" in the first decades of the 20th century. But the general public mainly called homosexuals "fairies." If you were in London in the 1920s through the 1940s and used the term "fag," the man in the street might have offered you a cigarette, and quite possibly that would have been the case with many Americans at the time.

All of this does little to answer your original question: How did a bundle of sticks come to mean a homosexual male? Most likely it didn't. Here we'll have to go to theory. Since I'm writing this, mine will have to do.
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Postby james » Fri Apr 07, 2006 9:14 pm

mijopaalmc wrote:
james wrote:When you stop acting like a little faggot.


Wow, james, that's mature, calling FfF a faggot.

I've only been here a little while and may not always agree with what FfF says, but from what I have read of his posts and seen of his avatars, he is one of the least "faggoty" guys here (not that there's any thing wrong with being faggoty, as far as I can see).

Calling people faggots is the kind of thing that severly discredits you (and DL) in the eyes of the other posters here (if I may speak for you for a minute, guys.)

But it is OK to call me a bitch? I don't want to hijack this thread, but please, tell my why that's OK. Seriously, why can anyone say whatever hateful and untrue thing they want to say about me? And then complain about how poorly queers are treated by the world? Are you really, really not seeing the hypocrisy there?[/b]
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Postby Smitty » Fri Apr 07, 2006 9:23 pm

james wrote:I don't want to hijack this thread...

But that is exactly what you are doing (again). Keep it up, james, and I'll ask a mod in this forum to delete all your posts from this thread as off topic. This is not the james thread.
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Postby james » Fri Apr 07, 2006 10:43 pm

So, you support people calling me a bitch, Smitty? OK, ask the mods to jump in. Are they going to delete Far From Flaming's post too? And all the many posts which personally insult me? Hey, mods, what about it?
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Postby siddy » Sat Apr 08, 2006 2:59 am

DL

the issue of sleeping around for me is an important one. If you are married having unprotected sex and then returning to your wife and having unprotected sex that is a serious issue. There is a high probability that hiv could be passed on if the same person has a lot of partners.

From my experience in the gay community it's up to you if you are 'd l' out or whatever you want to be, it's more about how I treat my friends not the politics.
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Postby Guest » Sat Apr 08, 2006 6:38 am

siddy wrote:DL

the issue of sleeping around for me is an important one. If you are married having unprotected sex and then returning to your wife and having unprotected sex that is a serious issue. There is a high probability that hiv could be passed on if the same person has a lot of partners.

From my experience in the gay community it's up to you if you are 'd l' out or whatever you want to be, it's more about how I treat my friends not the politics.


I agree,i do not support men period who are in a realtionship or marriage .and not using rubbers putting there wives at great risk for HIV and a host of other illnesses.However many homosexuals and women sound damn dumb as hell talking about

WE MUST STOP THE D.L MEN FROM EXPOSING OUR BLACK WOMEN


A major generalization and a attempt to fight a battle they already lost,because a grown man is going to do what a grown man wants to do,instead o attacking this grown man on the DL,try encouraging the person to be considerate of there partner or wife.But know the media along with flaming behaviors are two of the main reasons men choose to keep there business to themselves
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Postby mijopaalmc » Sat Apr 08, 2006 11:50 am

DL-

Your constant blaming of "flamers" and "fags" (your words) as being the reason that men on the DL are not open about their sexuality strikes me as one of the most unmasculine things I have seen in a long. From what I understand of how men define masculinity (at least the men on this site), there is huge element of self-confidence and high self-esteem involved. You, quite contrarily, choose to blame the (for lack of a better word) closetedness of men on the DL on their desire not to be perceived as "flamers" and "fags". It seems to me that this opinion that "flamers" and "fags" are the sole reason that men on the DL do not identify as gay is based in complete lack of self-confidence and self-esteem required to steel you against society's negative perceptions of gays. One is completely controlled by the actions of others and utterly enslaved to what others think of him.

Another element of masculinity (indeed of any functioning human being) should be some degree of self-control. You seem to completely abandon any notion of it when you say "a grown man's going to do what a grown man wants to do". It also strikes me as extremely naive that you think that the I'm-going-to-do-whatever-I-want-to-do attitude is possibly "encouraging the person to be considerate of there partner or wife". The most obvious "what if" scenario is how you deal with your man-sex desires if your significant other says that he or she wants sexual exclusivity. Your "man's gotta do what a man's gotta do" mantra seems to leave no room for objections that others in relationships with you have and therefore exclude any real consideration or respect for others.

Please correct if my interpretation of your views of how to deal with your significant other's objections is wrong.
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Postby Guest » Sat Apr 08, 2006 12:12 pm

mijopaalmc wrote:DL-

Your constant blaming of "flamers" and "fags" (your words) as being the reason that men on the DL are not open about their sexuality strikes me as one of the most unmasculine things I have seen in a long. From what I understand of how men define masculinity (at least the men on this site), there is huge element of self-confidence and high self-esteem involved. You, quite contrarily, choose to blame the (for lack of a better word) closetedness of men on the DL on their desire not to be perceived as "flamers" and "fags". It seems to me that this opinion that "flamers" and "fags" are the sole reason that men on the DL do not identify as gay is based in complete lack of self-confidence and self-esteem required to steel you against society's negative perceptions of gays. One is completely controlled by the actions of others and utterly enslaved to what others think of him.

Another element of masculinity (indeed of any functioning human being) should be some degree of self-control. You seem to completely abandon any notion of it when you say "a grown man's going to do what a grown man wants to do". It also strikes me as extremely naive that you think that the I'm-going-to-do-whatever-I-want-to-do attitude is possibly "encouraging the person to be considerate of there partner or wife". The most obvious "what if" scenario is how you deal with your man-sex desires if your significant other says that he or she wants sexual exclusivity. Your "man's gotta do what a man's gotta do" mantra seems to leave no room for objections that others in relationships with you have and therefore exclude any real consideration or respect for others.

Please correct if my interpretation of your views of how to deal with your significant other's objections is wrong.




Your constant blaming of "flamers" and "fags" (your words) as being the reason that men on the DL are not open about their sexuality strikes me as one of the most unmasculine things I have seen in a long. From what I understand of how men define masculinity (at least the men on this site), there is huge element of self-confidence and high self-esteem involved. You, quite contrarily, choose to blame the (for lack of a better word) closetedness of men on the DL on their desire not to be perceived as "flamers" and "fags". It seems to me that this opinion that "flamers" and "fags" are the sole reason that men on the DL do not identify as gay is based in complete lack of self-confidence and self-esteem required to steel you against society's negative perceptions of gays. One is completely controlled by the actions of others and utterly enslaved to what others think of him.


YOU CLEARLY DID NOT COMPREHEND IT WELL.I stated that the reason men are DL is not because of what society will perceive them as,Yet because they do not want to be bothered with flamboyant behavior and transexuals,The mentality of transexuals is one that the DL guy cannot deal with,Transexuals want to be referred to as ""SHES"and they are not "SHES"no matter how you look at it,certainly the DL guy is not going to see a tranny as a she,acknowledging that it is a tranny is full acknowledgement that it is a he,I also stated that flamboyancy is not natural at all.Science does not support flamboyancy as a natural trait.Flamboyancy is simply exaggerating effeminate traits which include becoming loud and obnoxious and traits of women like gossiping or twitching taken to the extreme which is quite annoying to not only the DL men but the HETEROSEXUALS as well.The book sissyphobia talks about how society even in the straight world would rather deal with the masculine homosexual or bisexual than the flamboyant one or transexual one.It seems to me you thinking men are DL because of not wanting to deal with the annoying behavior of flamboyant men and creating your own assumption or theory that they lack self confidence or self esteem is just you telling yourself this to cover your anger at why DL men choose not to associate with the homosexual scene because of flamers.Realize that men are obligated to hang with what they want,when they choose,just as much as flames are obligated to be a flame.I myself will remain discreet because i simply have come to terms with who i am to myself as well as many many DL guys from marines to thugs on the street that sleep with each other.I realize that this so called mentality that many homosexuals have that ""coming out""is the key to having pride is complete horseshit and rather selfish thoughted to think this is the only way to having pride,when pride is something that is within you.My reason of remaining DL and not associating with the homosexual scene is also because it is not me and because of the mentality many homosexuals have,I am quite content with my well-being as of now and will never change it to impress anyone.Even if i was ever asked am i bisexual or homosexual my answer would be NO.Because for one i am not a homosexual,because homosexuals are attracted to the opposite sex only 2.though i am bisexual i simply will never satisfy a nosey individual by even saying""WHY DO YOU CARE"" OR ""WHATS IT TO YOU""which does nothing but tell that individual "yes"because in there mind only the real heterosexual would say NO!.Have i lied to myself by telling them NO i am not?? Hell no,because i know what i am to myself and i can tell 700 people i am not bisexual and still know what i am to myself.

AM I PROUD TO BE A BISEXUAL MALE?? HELL NO,FOR WHAT?? it is what it is,why be proud of something i have no control over,I am simply content with it however,because it is what it is.


Another element of masculinity (indeed of any functioning human being) should be some degree of self-control. You seem to completely abandon any notion of it when you say "a grown man's going to do what a grown man wants to do". It also strikes me as extremely naive that you think that the I'm-going-to-do-whatever-I-want-to-do attitude is possibly "encouraging the person to be considerate of there partner or wife". The most obvious "what if" scenario is how you deal with your man-sex desires if your significant other says that he or she wants sexual exclusivity. Your "man's gotta do what a man's gotta do" mantra seems to leave no room for objections that others in relationships with you have and therefore exclude any real consideration or respect for others.

Please correct if my interpretation of your views of how to deal with your significant other's objections is wrong


DUDE,part of being a grown mature adult is realizing A GROWN MAN IS GOING TO DO WHAT A GROWN MAN WANTS TO DO.That is all there is to it,there is nothing you can say to change that fact.You say self-control you perception of self control is certainly different from others.And realizing that""MEN ARE GOING TO DO WHATEVER THEY WANT""helps one to realize that ATTACKING THIS MALE only makes him doing WHATEVER HE WANTS TO DO even more to the point were he becomes inconsiderate of his sexual partners health.It seems to me that you cannot realize that PEOPLE PERIOD, ARE GOING TO DO WHATEVER THEY WANT TO DO,and there is simply not a thing you can do to change it forcefully like HOMOSEXUALS AND WOMAN are trying to do with DL men.As i stated before instead of attacking these inconsiderate DL men,try encouraging them to USE CONDOMS,USE CONDOMS,afterall this is the big issue with DL men,is cheating and possible STD spreading from unprotected sexual contact with several more partners than the one you are committed too.I have now corrected your interpretations of what i have spoke of,basically it is like this


UNDERSTANDING THAT MEN ARE GOING TO SCREW WHATEVER THEY WANT,WHEN THEY WANT is also understanding that there is simply nothing you can do to force him to change ,Only encouragement not to cheat or to use a rubber will help.ATTACKING IS WHAT WOMEN AND HOMOSEXUALS DO TO DL MEN,which only makes him respond with anger and continue to do dirt because he feels he is being insulted by someone who is attacking him for doing what he chooses to do as a grown adult.As a grown man he feels no one tells him what to do.That is the mentality many DL men that cheat and do not use rubbers take on when you ATTACK them with anger,the response will be anger and to piss you off even more by forcing himself to do what you hate even more to strike back at you.

ATTACK IS NOT THE KEY,ENCOURAGEMENT TO BE CONSIDERATE IS.

Most of what people say about the DL guys,they do not even give thought about for it to be true and seems to be some coverup many homosexuals use to criticize those individuals who are actually quite content with being DL no matter how inconsiderate they are of there sexual partner.As i said earliar,it seems many homosexuals simply will not be happy until every human who is attracted to the same sex comes out and join the gay society
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Re: FLAMBOYANT MEN=THE REASON MEN STAY ON THE ""DL

Postby Ben » Sat Apr 08, 2006 7:42 pm

DL_WILL_REMAIN wrote:In your experiences with them,Have you all noticed this type of behavior?.And do you all understand were i am coming from with this?.PLEASE NO IGNORANCE!


I do understand where you're coming from.
I've experienced a few flamers like that and admittedly, they bugged the hell out of me. But it's just like Smitty said, they're loud, so they're easy to avoid. Those flaming queens your were talking about were just ignorant and quite frankly they seemed stupid beyond belief.

Ignorance and stupidity is bad, but it's even worse when displayed flamingly. It's almost like they're proud of it.

I say exclude that kind of people from your life. You don't want that kind of crap. While there is such a thing as internalized homophobia, there is also a thing such as internalized bigotry - and in this case, they were it.
You are not like them, they are not like you. The fact that you both like guys don't make you the same. That's what everyone needs to understand.

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Re: FLAMBOYANT MEN=THE REASON MEN STAY ON THE ""DL

Postby Guest » Sat Apr 08, 2006 11:02 pm

Ben wrote:
DL_WILL_REMAIN wrote:In your experiences with them,Have you all noticed this type of behavior?.And do you all understand were i am coming from with this?.PLEASE NO IGNORANCE!


I do understand where you're coming from.
I've experienced a few flamers like that and admittedly, they bugged the hell out of me. But it's just like Smitty said, they're loud, so they're easy to avoid. Those flaming queens your were talking about were just ignorant and quite frankly they seemed stupid beyond belief.

Ignorance and stupidity is bad, but it's even worse when displayed flamingly. It's almost like they're proud of it.

I say exclude that kind of people from your life. You don't want that kind of crap. While there is such a thing as internalized homophobia, there is also a thing such as internalized bigotry - and in this case, they were it.
You are not like them, they are not like you. The fact that you both like guys don't make you the same. That's what everyone needs to understand.

Welcome to the Board.


APPLAUSE AND THANK YOU,,I TOTALLY AGREE,FLAMES CAUSE THERE OWN TROUBLES AND ARE THE REASON MANY DL MEN CHOOSE TO REMAIN DL,BECAUSE THEY DO NOT WANT TO ASSOCIATE WITH A SCENE THAT HAS SUCH BEHAVIOR IN IT
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Re: FLAMBOYANT MEN=THE REASON MEN STAY ON THE ""DL

Postby Texas_Thang » Sat Apr 08, 2006 11:59 pm

DL_WILL_REMAIN wrote:
Ben wrote:
DL_WILL_REMAIN wrote:In your experiences with them,Have you all noticed this type of behavior?.And do you all understand were i am coming from with this?.PLEASE NO IGNORANCE!


I do understand where you're coming from.
I've experienced a few flamers like that and admittedly, they bugged the hell out of me. But it's just like Smitty said, they're loud, so they're easy to avoid. Those flaming queens your were talking about were just ignorant and quite frankly they seemed stupid beyond belief.

Ignorance and stupidity is bad, but it's even worse when displayed flamingly. It's almost like they're proud of it.

I say exclude that kind of people from your life. You don't want that kind of crap. While there is such a thing as internalized homophobia, there is also a thing such as internalized bigotry - and in this case, they were it.
You are not like them, they are not like you. The fact that you both like guys don't make you the same. That's what everyone needs to understand.

Welcome to the Board.


APPLAUSE AND THANK YOU,,I TOTALLY AGREE,FLAMES CAUSE THERE OWN TROUBLES AND ARE THE REASON MANY DL MEN CHOOSE TO REMAIN DL,BECAUSE THEY DO NOT WANT TO ASSOCIATE WITH A SCENE THAT HAS SUCH BEHAVIOR IN IT


I'm going to ask the same as Smitty. Please don't use the big font.... it is the equivalent of shouting, since we can't hear you. Thanks.
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Postby Negate » Sun Apr 09, 2006 1:25 pm

MY NAME IS NEGATE!
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<----Imz In your forum sabotaging yah thredz.
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Postby blu » Sun Apr 09, 2006 3:53 pm

You people are so rediculously gullible.

You have never met Mother Tusunami , nor any of the other Tusunamis.
Im just going to say you were just using a transsexual person as an example, for your little story. Somthing so rediculously random as this would never happen.

You must be banned at www.foxboogie.com yet again. :roll:
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Postby blu » Sun Apr 09, 2006 3:54 pm

This was quite entertaining though, nice try.
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Postby qwertz » Sun Apr 09, 2006 3:59 pm

DL_will_remain,

I think all guys (str8 or gay) perfectly know what you are talking about, for the simple reason all guys are extremely aware of the masculinty/lack of masculinity/feminity issue. This awareness is pushed to pathologic (?) extremes in most, if not all, guys (str8 or gay). That makes flaming guys very hard to accept, especially in the gay scene as all guys (str8 or gay) want only one thing: be one of the boys and be accepted by their fellow men as one of them, as a "real man" (whatever that means). That psychological background permeates all society and is unfortunately(?) strongly echoed in the gay world, though I think it is perfectly OK for gay guys to focus on this masculinity issue since their sex drive is turned to masculinity and sex drive is sacred whatsoever.

So, I certainely will never disapprove of DL-guys. I know a lot of them. And BTW many DL-guys are very considerate and always use rubbers. For many (not all) DL-guys going into the gay world, is like squarring the circle. What they look for, is masculinity and they equate the gay world with no masculinity at all, among others, but not only, because of flaming guys. Education plays a huge role too.
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Postby Guest » Sun Apr 09, 2006 11:50 pm

[quote="blu"]You people are so rediculously gullible.

You have never met Mother Tusunami , nor any of the other Tusunamis.
Im just going to say you were just using a transsexual person as an example, for your little story. Somthing so rediculously random as this would never happen.

You must be banned at www.foxboogie.com yet again. :roll: OK NOW I AM CONFUSED .What the hell is a foxboogie.com :?: ,i just logged onto it and it belongs to the rapper foxy brown.How the hell did we go from straightacting.com talking about DL guys to talking about FOXY BROWN??? :? :?
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Postby Guest » Sun Apr 09, 2006 11:53 pm

qwertz wrote:DL_will_remain,

I think all guys (str8 or gay) perfectly know what you are talking about, for the simple reason all guys are extremely aware of the masculinty/lack of masculinity/feminity issue. This awareness is pushed to pathologic (?) extremes in most, if not all, guys (str8 or gay). That makes flaming guys very hard to accept, especially in the gay scene as all guys (str8 or gay) want only one thing: be one of the boys and be accepted by their fellow men as one of them, as a "real man" (whatever that means). That psychological background permeates all society and is unfortunately(?) strongly echoed in the gay world, though I think it is perfectly OK for gay guys to focus on this masculinity issue since their sex drive is turned to masculinity and sex drive is sacred whatsoever.

So, I certainely will never disapprove of DL-guys. I know a lot of them. And BTW many DL-guys are very considerate and always use rubbers. For many (not all) DL-guys going into the gay world, is like squarring the circle. What they look for, is masculinity and they equate the gay world with no masculinity at all, among others, but not only, because of flaming guys. Education plays a huge role too.


I agree with every last statement.I also feel flaming gays and transexuals are in much denial of this,though many dl guys also love trannies on the low,not nearly as much as the ones that like other dl guys on the low.I have noticed the dislike toward both flaming and transexual and even openly gay from 75 percent of the DL guys i have ran into,whether there white ,black,latino,marine,navy,air force,street thug,football player jock,soccer player whatever[/b]
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Postby blu » Mon Apr 10, 2006 6:32 am

DL_WILL_REMAIN wrote:
blu wrote:You people are so rediculously gullible.

You have never met Mother Tusunami , nor any of the other Tusunamis.
Im just going to say you were just using a transsexual person as an example, for your little story. Somthing so rediculously random as this would never happen.

You must be banned at www.foxboogie.com yet again. :roll: OK NOW I AM CONFUSED .What the hell is a foxboogie.com :?: ,i just logged onto it and it belongs to the rapper foxy brown.How the hell did we go from straightacting.com talking about DL guys to talking about FOXY BROWN??? :? :?


Dont even play dumb :roll:
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Postby rovie » Mon Apr 10, 2006 6:57 am

Men on the DL are there because they want all the respectability and mutual acceptance of other guys and society of being straight while enjoying all the benefits of having sex with guys. That's why flamers and trannies are such a great threat to them because merely being seen in public with them will blow their cover.

It's as simple as that.
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Postby Guest » Mon Apr 10, 2006 7:42 am

rovie wrote:Men on the DL are there because they want all the respectability and mutual acceptance of other guys and society of being straight while enjoying all the benefits of having sex with guys. That's why flamers and trannies are such a great threat to them because merely being seen in public with them will blow their cover.

It's as simple as that.
Thats par tof the reason why,yet biggest reason si they just do not like being associated with trannies and flames because of there behavior.I have done the research well enough to know that is one of the main reasons.Remember most DL guys or so called straight men are not even into flames,(though there are alot into tranny,not nearly as much as those that are not)

Most DL men have the mentality that says I LIKE DUDES,i already got chicks,whats the point of messing with a tranny and a flaming dude.I might as well stay messing with chicks only
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Postby Guest » Mon Apr 10, 2006 7:44 am

rovie wrote:Men on the DL are there because they want all the respectability and mutual acceptance of other guys and society of being straight while enjoying all the benefits of having sex with guys. That's why flamers and trannies are such a great threat to them because merely being seen in public with them will blow their cover.

It's as simple as that.
Thats part of the reason why,yet biggest reason is they just do not like being associated with trannies and flames because of there behavior.I have done the research well enough to know that is one of the main reasons.Remember most DL guys or so called straight men are not even into flames,(though there are alot into tranny,not nearly as much as those that are not)

Most DL men have the mentality that says I LIKE DUDES,i already got chicks,whats the point of messing with a tranny and a flaming dude.I might as well stay messing with chicks only
Guest
 

Postby tigakub » Mon Apr 10, 2006 5:18 pm

DL wrote:APPLAUSE AND THANK YOU,,I TOTALLY AGREE,FLAMES CAUSE THERE OWN TROUBLES AND ARE THE REASON MANY DL MEN CHOOSE TO REMAIN DL,BECAUSE THEY DO NOT WANT TO ASSOCIATE WITH A SCENE THAT HAS SUCH BEHAVIOR IN IT

First, may I point out that posting in all caps + bold-face is called "flaming" and is the internet forum equivalent of shouting. It's considered poor internet etiquette. It isn't necessary to shout to get your points across.

DL wrote:I also stated that flamboyancy is not natural at all. Science does not support flamboyancy as a natural trait.Flamboyancy is simply exaggerating effeminate traits which include becoming loud and obnoxious and traits of women like gossiping or twitching taken to the extreme which is quite annoying to not only the DL men but the HETEROSEXUALS as well.

It's difficult to say what is natural or not. I'm sure you've heard the phrase "it's all relative." There is no absolute standard of "natural" only what the majority of society deams as "the norm." Just because a thing makes you uncomfortable does not make it unnatural. It just makes you uncomfortable.

DL wrote:The book sissyphobia talks about how society even in the straight world would rather deal with the masculine homosexual or bisexual than the flamboyant one or transexual one.

A phobia is defined as an irrational fear of something. And having an irrational fear means that it is a fear not based on reason or fact. Have you considered that the book you cite may actually be criticising "the straight world" for its prejudice against effeminacy in men?

DL wrote:It seems to me you thinking men are DL because of not wanting to deal with the annoying behavior of flamboyant men and creating your own assumption or theory that they lack self confidence or self esteem is just you telling yourself this to cover your anger at why DL men choose not to associate with the homosexual scene because of flamers.

In truth, do you really think it's believable that someone would care so much whom you (or DLs) associate with as to be angered by it? I try not to make such sweeping generalizations as "DLs lack self-esteem." But I do think that many gay and bisexual men stay in the closet because their life situation prohibits them from coming out. If a person has known nothing but homophobia all his life, I can fully understand why he would be reluctant to let anyone know of his homosexual tendancies. There are those who maintain that they are happy in the closet. If so, then more power to them. I've read so many posts on this board, however, espousing the woes of closetted life that I think I'm entitled to be skeptical.

DL wrote:Realize that men are obligated to hang with what they want,when they choose,just as much as flames are obligated to be a flame.I myself will remain discreet because i simply have come to terms with who i am to myself as well as many many DL guys from marines to thugs on the street that sleep with each other.I realize that this so called mentality that many homosexuals have that ""coming out""is the key to having pride is complete horseshit and rather selfish thoughted to think this is the only way to having pride,when pride is something that is within you.

Each of us has his own idea of what pride is. No one has the right to force anyone else to adopt a philosophy which is not his own. Equivalently, no one should belittle someone else's philosophy. If you are comfortable with who you are, I congratulate you. However, I would invite you to consider how calling someone else's philosophy "horseshit" is inappropriate and confrontational.

DL wrote:My reason of remaining DL and not associating with the homosexual scene is also because it is not me and because of the mentality many homosexuals have,I am quite content with my well-being as of now and will never change it to impress anyone.

Anyone who tries to force you to change is wrong and has issues. But part of being comfortable with who you are is not being threatened by those who don't accept you. If you are truly secure with your identity, then you should not feel the need to denigrate others, or to physically lash out at others. When I'm called a name, I realize that the other person is just lashing out because he feels insecure. If I care about the person I'd try to find out why so that I can set his mind at ease. If I've got other things to deal with, I might just ignore him. His calling me a name is not a reflection on me. He is only belittling himself by displaying how immature he is.

DL wrote:Even if i was ever asked am i bisexual or homosexual my answer would be NO.Because for one i am not a homosexual,because homosexuals are attracted to the opposite sex only 2.though i am bisexual i simply will never satisfy a nosey individual by even saying""WHY DO YOU CARE"" OR ""WHATS IT TO YOU""which does nothing but tell that individual "yes"because in there mind only the real heterosexual would say NO!.Have i lied to myself by telling them NO i am not?? Hell no,because i know what i am to myself and i can tell 700 people i am not bisexual and still know what i am to myself.

"Why do you care?" and "What's it to you?" and "It's none of your business" are all defensive responses and as you have observed, they only reveal that you are insecure. Lying about your sexuality (and I'm not saying that lying is necessarily a bad thing), may not reveal your insecurities to others, but it won't hide them from yourself. People want to lash out when they feel threatened. It's a protection mechanism and is completely normal. Part of being mature is controlling the impulse to lash out in inappropriate ways. A mature person suppresses the instinct to strike back, and seeks ways of diffusing situations without resorting to unnecessary confrontation.

An astute person might go further and examine what it was that made him feel annoyed or threatened. It is widely believed that when we feel annoyed or threatened by someone else, it is really because we see something in that person which reminds us of something which we don't like, or would not like to see, in ourselves.

DL wrote:DUDE,part of being a grown mature adult is realizing A GROWN MAN IS GOING TO DO WHAT A GROWN MAN WANTS TO DO.

I'm somewhat uncomfortable with this statement. I am fully aware that I have little (nor should I have any) control over the actions of others. However, I wouldn't place someone who just did whatever he wanted in very high regard. Part of being mature is being able to control oneself, being able to stop oneself from doing things that hurt others no matter how much one wants to. Being mature is about realizing that one is a member of society and has certain responsibilities as such.

DL wrote:It seems to me that you cannot realize that PEOPLE PERIOD, ARE GOING TO DO WHATEVER THEY WANT TO DO,and there is simply not a thing you can do to change it forcefully

I beg to differ. There are certainly forces in this world that forcibly oppose people who "do whatever they want to do," especially when what they want to do harms others. Being DL, per se, is not harmful, however, and I don't think it reasonable for anyone to "forcefully" change a DL man. However, I can think of consequences of being DL which can cause harm. But each case has to be considered on its own merits.

Hypothetically, assume I have sex outside my relationship. Without knowing more, no one could judge if that's good or bad. Let's say that I don't use condoms and am indescriminate with whom I have sex. I could contract an STD. Is that bad? It's my body. It's my life. Right? But consider that I might spread STDs. Is that bad? It may be argued that people who sleep with me can't hold me responsible because they are responsible for their own well being, and they consciously took the risk when they slept with me. So even up to this point, the morality of my choice is unclear. However, what if I'm doing this without my partner's knowledge? What if my partner believes that I am faithful? I have effectively robbed him/her of his/her choice to protect him-/herself from the risk that I undertake when I sleep with others. It's one thing to accept consequences for my own risks. It's quite another to expect others to share in that burden especially when they don't know about it.

DL wrote:instead of attacking these inconsiderate DL men,try encouraging them to USE CONDOMS,USE CONDOMS,afterall this is the big issue with DL men,is cheating and possible STD spreading ... Only encouragement not to cheat or to use a rubber will help. ATTACKING IS WHAT WOMEN AND HOMOSEXUALS DO TO DL MEN,which only makes him respond with anger and continue to do dirt because he feels he is being insulted by someone who is attacking him for doing what he chooses to do as a grown adult.

I agree that attacking someone is the worst way to deal with any problems. I am sympathetic to DL men and wish that there was an easy answer to their problems. Some DL men get married simply because they feel social pressure to do so. They are in fact mostly gay and are using marriage to women as camouflage against homophobic families and friends. Other DL men get married and truly love their wives and children, but are still attracted to men, and can't deny that urge.

To the latter I would say that I recognize the conundrum but can offer no solution. It is only the lucky few who have the understanding of their wives. I can't attest to whether such relationships really work in the long run, but they have my best wishes.

To the former, I would say that I'm sorry that they were so trapped by social convention that they felt that they had to make a life long commitment to an institution so contrary to their biological tendancies. I would encourage them, when they feel the time is right, to come clean to their families so that they can seek relationships more appropriate to their desires, and allow everyone concerned to get on with their lives.

To both I would emphasise the necessity for responsible sexual behavior and consideration for all sexual partners concerned.

DL wrote:As a grown man he feels no one tells him what to do.That is the mentality many DL men that cheat and do not use rubbers take on when you ATTACK them with anger,the response will be anger and to piss you off even more by forcing himself to do what you hate even more to strike back at you.

It's one thing to go after what you want. I would say that a true man pursues his dreams avidly, but also responsibly and honestly, even in the face of derision or rejection.

To engage in destructive behavior simply out of anger and spite is not very mature.

Assume that I say this:

"You dis me for engaging in risky sexual activity, so you are forcing me to do it even more to get back at you."

Would you agree that that is not a particulary reasonable or mature statement to make? First, by engaging in risky sex, I am exposing my own self to harm. So how is that "getting back" at the person who dissed me? Second, if someone could "force" me to do something simply by calling me a few names, how much of my own man am I? I'm not really demonstrating that I'm independent. I'm just demonstrating that I can do the opposite of what someone tells me to do. That's not very impressive.

There is a word for this mentality: petulance.

And there is a very large group of people who engage in it: infants.

I completely understand that you are not saying that you condone this kind of mentality. You are saying that it is a fact of life that there are people out there who have this mentality. And I agree with you that name-calling, ridicule and ostracism are not effective ways of getting them to change their mentality.

DL wrote:UNDERSTANDING THAT MEN ARE GOING TO SCREW WHATEVER THEY WANT,WHEN THEY WANT

I'm afraid that I can't agree. I'm a man, and I certainly don't screw whatever I want, whenever I want. I see a lot of hot men with whom I would like to have sex. But I don't act on that desire because I have committed myself to a monogamous relationship. And I am satisfied with that because I derive so much more from my relationship than sexual gratification.
t.kub
tigakub
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Postby Guest » Mon Apr 10, 2006 7:37 pm

tigakub wrote:
DL wrote:APPLAUSE AND THANK YOU,,I TOTALLY AGREE,FLAMES CAUSE THERE OWN TROUBLES AND ARE THE REASON MANY DL MEN CHOOSE TO REMAIN DL,BECAUSE THEY DO NOT WANT TO ASSOCIATE WITH A SCENE THAT HAS SUCH BEHAVIOR IN IT

First, may I point out that posting in all caps + bold-face is called "flaming" and is the internet forum equivalent of shouting. It's considered poor internet etiquette. It isn't necessary to shout to get your points across.

DL wrote:I also stated that flamboyancy is not natural at all. Science does not support flamboyancy as a natural trait.Flamboyancy is simply exaggerating effeminate traits which include becoming loud and obnoxious and traits of women like gossiping or twitching taken to the extreme which is quite annoying to not only the DL men but the HETEROSEXUALS as well.

It's difficult to say what is natural or not. I'm sure you've heard the phrase "it's all relative." There is no absolute standard of "natural" only what the majority of society deams as "the norm." Just because a thing makes you uncomfortable does not make it unnatural. It just makes you uncomfortable.

DL wrote:The book sissyphobia talks about how society even in the straight world would rather deal with the masculine homosexual or bisexual than the flamboyant one or transexual one.

A phobia is defined as an irrational fear of something. And having an irrational fear means that it is a fear not based on reason or fact. Have you considered that the book you cite may actually be criticising "the straight world" for its prejudice against effeminacy in men?

DL wrote:It seems to me you thinking men are DL because of not wanting to deal with the annoying behavior of flamboyant men and creating your own assumption or theory that they lack self confidence or self esteem is just you telling yourself this to cover your anger at why DL men choose not to associate with the homosexual scene because of flamers.

In truth, do you really think it's believable that someone would care so much whom you (or DLs) associate with as to be angered by it? I try not to make such sweeping generalizations as "DLs lack self-esteem." But I do think that many gay and bisexual men stay in the closet because their life situation prohibits them from coming out. If a person has known nothing but homophobia all his life, I can fully understand why he would be reluctant to let anyone know of his homosexual tendancies. There are those who maintain that they are happy in the closet. If so, then more power to them. I've read so many posts on this board, however, espousing the woes of closetted life that I think I'm entitled to be skeptical.

DL wrote:Realize that men are obligated to hang with what they want,when they choose,just as much as flames are obligated to be a flame.I myself will remain discreet because i simply have come to terms with who i am to myself as well as many many DL guys from marines to thugs on the street that sleep with each other.I realize that this so called mentality that many homosexuals have that ""coming out""is the key to having pride is complete horseshit and rather selfish thoughted to think this is the only way to having pride,when pride is something that is within you.

Each of us has his own idea of what pride is. No one has the right to force anyone else to adopt a philosophy which is not his own. Equivalently, no one should belittle someone else's philosophy. If you are comfortable with who you are, I congratulate you. However, I would invite you to consider how calling someone else's philosophy "horseshit" is inappropriate and confrontational.

DL wrote:My reason of remaining DL and not associating with the homosexual scene is also because it is not me and because of the mentality many homosexuals have,I am quite content with my well-being as of now and will never change it to impress anyone.

Anyone who tries to force you to change is wrong and has issues. But part of being comfortable with who you are is not being threatened by those who don't accept you. If you are truly secure with your identity, then you should not feel the need to denigrate others, or to physically lash out at others. When I'm called a name, I realize that the other person is just lashing out because he feels insecure. If I care about the person I'd try to find out why so that I can set his mind at ease. If I've got other things to deal with, I might just ignore him. His calling me a name is not a reflection on me. He is only belittling himself by displaying how immature he is.

DL wrote:Even if i was ever asked am i bisexual or homosexual my answer would be NO.Because for one i am not a homosexual,because homosexuals are attracted to the opposite sex only 2.though i am bisexual i simply will never satisfy a nosey individual by even saying""WHY DO YOU CARE"" OR ""WHATS IT TO YOU""which does nothing but tell that individual "yes"because in there mind only the real heterosexual would say NO!.Have i lied to myself by telling them NO i am not?? Hell no,because i know what i am to myself and i can tell 700 people i am not bisexual and still know what i am to myself.

"Why do you care?" and "What's it to you?" and "It's none of your business" are all defensive responses and as you have observed, they only reveal that you are insecure. Lying about your sexuality (and I'm not saying that lying is necessarily a bad thing), may not reveal your insecurities to others, but it won't hide them from yourself. People want to lash out when they feel threatened. It's a protection mechanism and is completely normal. Part of being mature is controlling the impulse to lash out in inappropriate ways. A mature person suppresses the instinct to strike back, and seeks ways of diffusing situations without resorting to unnecessary confrontation.

An astute person might go further and examine what it was that made him feel annoyed or threatened. It is widely believed that when we feel annoyed or threatened by someone else, it is really because we see something in that person which reminds us of something which we don't like, or would not like to see, in ourselves.

DL wrote:DUDE,part of being a grown mature adult is realizing A GROWN MAN IS GOING TO DO WHAT A GROWN MAN WANTS TO DO.

I'm somewhat uncomfortable with this statement. I am fully aware that I have little (nor should I have any) control over the actions of others. However, I wouldn't place someone who just did whatever he wanted in very high regard. Part of being mature is being able to control oneself, being able to stop oneself from doing things that hurt others no matter how much one wants to. Being mature is about realizing that one is a member of society and has certain responsibilities as such.

DL wrote:It seems to me that you cannot realize that PEOPLE PERIOD, ARE GOING TO DO WHATEVER THEY WANT TO DO,and there is simply not a thing you can do to change it forcefully

I beg to differ. There are certainly forces in this world that forcibly oppose people who "do whatever they want to do," especially when what they want to do harms others. Being DL, per se, is not harmful, however, and I don't think it reasonable for anyone to "forcefully" change a DL man. However, I can think of consequences of being DL which can cause harm. But each case has to be considered on its own merits.

Hypothetically, assume I have sex outside my relationship. Without knowing more, no one could judge if that's good or bad. Let's say that I don't use condoms and am indescriminate with whom I have sex. I could contract an STD. Is that bad? It's my body. It's my life. Right? But consider that I might spread STDs. Is that bad? It may be argued that people who sleep with me can't hold me responsible because they are responsible for their own well being, and they consciously took the risk when they slept with me. So even up to this point, the morality of my choice is unclear. However, what if I'm doing this without my partner's knowledge? What if my partner believes that I am faithful? I have effectively robbed him/her of his/her choice to protect him-/herself from the risk that I undertake when I sleep with others. It's one thing to accept consequences for my own risks. It's quite another to expect others to share in that burden especially when they don't know about it.

DL wrote:instead of attacking these inconsiderate DL men,try encouraging them to USE CONDOMS,USE CONDOMS,afterall this is the big issue with DL men,is cheating and possible STD spreading ... Only encouragement not to cheat or to use a rubber will help. ATTACKING IS WHAT WOMEN AND HOMOSEXUALS DO TO DL MEN,which only makes him respond with anger and continue to do dirt because he feels he is being insulted by someone who is attacking him for doing what he chooses to do as a grown adult.

I agree that attacking someone is the worst way to deal with any problems. I am sympathetic to DL men and wish that there was an easy answer to their problems. Some DL men get married simply because they feel social pressure to do so. They are in fact mostly gay and are using marriage to women as camouflage against homophobic families and friends. Other DL men get married and truly love their wives and children, but are still attracted to men, and can't deny that urge.

To the latter I would say that I recognize the conundrum but can offer no solution. It is only the lucky few who have the understanding of their wives. I can't attest to whether such relationships really work in the long run, but they have my best wishes.

To the former, I would say that I'm sorry that they were so trapped by social convention that they felt that they had to make a life long commitment to an institution so contrary to their biological tendancies. I would encourage them, when they feel the time is right, to come clean to their families so that they can seek relationships more appropriate to their desires, and allow everyone concerned to get on with their lives.

To both I would emphasise the necessity for responsible sexual behavior and consideration for all sexual partners concerned.

DL wrote:As a grown man he feels no one tells him what to do.That is the mentality many DL men that cheat and do not use rubbers take on when you ATTACK them with anger,the response will be anger and to piss you off even more by forcing himself to do what you hate even more to strike back at you.

It's one thing to go after what you want. I would say that a true man pursues his dreams avidly, but also responsibly and honestly, even in the face of derision or rejection.

To engage in destructive behavior simply out of anger and spite is not very mature.

Assume that I say this:

"You dis me for engaging in risky sexual activity, so you are forcing me to do it even more to get back at you."

Would you agree that that is not a particulary reasonable or mature statement to make? First, by engaging in risky sex, I am exposing my own self to harm. So how is that "getting back" at the person who dissed me? Second, if someone could "force" me to do something simply by calling me a few names, how much of my own man am I? I'm not really demonstrating that I'm independent. I'm just demonstrating that I can do the opposite of what someone tells me to do. That's not very impressive.

There is a word for this mentality: petulance.

And there is a very large group of people who engage in it: infants.

I completely understand that you are not saying that you condone this kind of mentality. You are saying that it is a fact of life that there are people out there who have this mentality. And I agree with you that name-calling, ridicule and ostracism are not effective ways of getting them to change their mentality.

DL wrote:UNDERSTANDING THAT MEN ARE GOING TO SCREW WHATEVER THEY WANT,WHEN THEY WANT

I'm afraid that I can't agree. I'm a man, and I certainly don't screw whatever I want, whenever I want. I see a lot of hot men with whom I would like to have sex. But I don't act on that desire because I have committed myself to a monogamous relationship. And I am satisfied with that because I derive so much more from my relationship than sexual gratification.
First, may I point out that posting in all caps + bold-face is called "flaming" and is the internet forum equivalent of shouting. It's considered poor internet etiquette. It isn't necessary to shout to get your points across.


First let me point out that me typing in bold caps is nothing but me typing in bold caps.I do not care what anyone tells you i am telling you me typing in bold caps is not me expressing anger or rage.So please do not waste my time telling me other peoples opinions of whats considered poor internet etiqutte.I did not shout,you cannot shout on the internet ,regardless what is perceived to be this or not.SHOUTING requires the usage of vocal cords,which a computer does not have



It's difficult to say what is natural or not. I'm sure you've heard the phrase "it's all relative." There is no absolute standard of "natural" only what the majority of society deams as "the norm." Just because a thing makes you uncomfortable does not make it unnatural. It just makes you uncomfortable.


No kid,it is not difficult,genetics can determine masculine traits from effeminate ones and flamboyancy is not natural at all,let me define the meaning for you so you can better understand it

1 entry found for flamboyancy.
flam·boy·ant ( P ) Pronunciation Key (flm-boint)
adj.
Highly elaborate; ornate

elborate:To become elaborate.
To express at greater length or in greater detail: asked me to elaborate on my proposal.

oh and who said flamboyancy makes me uncomfortable?? is that an assumption?? .There is no such things as flamboyant being natural.the meaning is also excessively done.I am not talking about societys standards of football being masculine and ballet being effeminate ,i mean natural traits that women have that are shown to originate from the female chromosome.

A phobia is defined as an irrational fear of something. And having an irrational fear means that it is a fear not based on reason or fact. Have you considered that the book you cite may actually be criticising "the straight world" for its prejudice against effeminacy in men?


Well it is obvious most heterosexual people do not fear effeminate men or flames if so in what way? what threat do they pose if they are running nothing??,when the heterosexuals are running this world and fems are fighting for the respect they want from them,they are the minorities in this world and lets not talk about the inferior complexes many of them have along with ordinary homosexual men in the scene.Have you considered the thought that you might tell yourself the book is criticizing effeminate men all because you cannot accept the truth,a common trait i have notice amone effeminate men.Not accepting constructive criticism??(NOT TO CALL YOU A FEM)





In truth, do you really think it's believable that someone would care so much whom you (or DLs) associate with as to be angered by it? I try not to make such sweeping generalizations as "DLs lack self-esteem." But I do think that many gay and bisexual men stay in the closet because their life situation prohibits them from coming out. If a person has known nothing but homophobia all his life, I can fully understand why he would be reluctant to let anyone know of his homosexual tendancies. There are those who maintain that they are happy in the closet. If so, then more power to them. I've read so many posts on this board, however, espousing the woes of closetted life that I think I'm entitled to be skeptical.


What is with many of you homosexuals always saying,NO ONE CARES,yet there are americans who go out of there way to protest against homosexuals or bisexuals or whatever else that is not heterosexual.Come on now give me a break.And please dont generalize,Because i could also generalize and say ALL FEMININE MEN ARE INSECURE WITH BEING MEN BECAUSE THEY WALK AROUND CALLING THEMSELVES ""SHES"" AND DIVAS,,.but i will not,because that is not true with every effeminate male.Stop hiding behind the truth,it does not matter what you say or do or think ,the truth is many men are DL or in your terms(closeted) because they do not want to associate with effeminate behavior and transexuals ,FACE IT WHETHER YOU LIKE IT OR NOT. :!: and your statements of why they also remain DL is also true.



Each of us has his own idea of what pride is. No one has the right to force anyone else to adopt a philosophy which is not his own. Equivalently, no one should belittle someone else's philosophy. If you are comfortable with who you are, I congratulate you. However, I would invite you to consider how calling someone else's philosophy "horseshit" is inappropriate and confrontational.


I agree with the first few sentences very much so.However the philopshy that to have pride of ones sexuality is to""come out""with it is indeed complete HORSESHIT! regardless of how inappropiate you look at it.The term horseshit is a figure of speech for (BULLSHIT) relative to (UNTRUE)



Anyone who tries to force you to change is wrong and has issues. But part of being comfortable with who you are is not being threatened by those who don't accept you. If you are truly secure with your identity, then you should not feel the need to denigrate others, or to physically lash out at others. When I'm called a name, I realize that the other person is just lashing out because he feels insecure. If I care about the person I'd try to find out why so that I can set his mind at ease. If I've got other things to deal with, I might just ignore him. His calling me a name is not a reflection on me. He is only belittling himself by displaying how immature he is.


Ok but who was lashing out at who and when?? is this an assumption?? Have you ever considered the possibiility that the person calling you a name ,just knows no better and that does not necessarily make him an insecure individual and that is just you wanting to think that about him ,so you can tell yourself a rational explanation to why he has insulted you,causing you to feel better and not hurt??


"Why do you care?" and "What's it to you?" and "It's none of your business" are all defensive responses and as you have observed, they only reveal that you are insecure. Lying about your sexuality (and I'm not saying that lying is necessarily a bad thing), may not reveal your insecurities to others, but it won't hide them from yourself. People want to lash out when they feel threatened. It's a protection mechanism and is completely normal. Part of being mature is controlling the impulse to lash out in inappropriate ways. A mature person suppresses the instinct to strike back, and seeks ways of diffusing situations without resorting to unnecessary confrontation.

An astute person might go further and examine what it was that made him feel annoyed or threatened. It is widely believed that when we feel annoyed or threatened by someone else, it is really because we see something in that person which reminds us of something which we don't like, or would not like to see, in ourselves.


Which is exactly why i just say NO,realizing what i am to myself and letting that inidividual questioning walk off.NO HARD FEELINGS.


I'm somewhat uncomfortable with this statement. I am fully aware that I have little (nor should I have any) control over the actions of others. However, I wouldn't place someone who just did whatever he wanted in very high regard. Part of being mature is being able to control oneself, being able to stop oneself from doing things that hurt others no matter how much one wants to. Being mature is about realizing that one is a member of society and has certain responsibilities as such.


You can be bothered by the statement in 80 million ways,Yet it is true.And who said i was highly regarding the GROWN MAN WHO DOES WHAT HE WANTS WHEN HE WANT.I simple stated that grown men are going to do what they want,when they want .And please stop telling me your definition of what is mature and what is not.The problem with our society is peoples interpretations of the meanings of things are quite different.What you consider mature,others may not.However it is also my belief that the true mature individual would be very considerate of others around them they can hurt.
There are men who do what they want when they want.


I beg to differ. There are certainly forces in this world that forcibly oppose people who "do whatever they want to do," especially when what they want to do harms others. Being DL, per se, is not harmful, however, and I don't think it reasonable for anyone to "forcefully" change a DL man. However, I can think of consequences of being DL which can cause harm. But each case has to be considered on its own merits.


Consequences of being DL?? like what?? I mean what is your definition of DL anway.Because if we are speaking consequences involving STD and hiv infection than that is not a consequence of being DL,that is simply a consequence for making the wrong choices and being inconsiderate of your health,or your partner or whomever is affected by this.



Hypothetically, assume I have sex outside my relationship. Without knowing more, no one could judge if that's good or bad. Let's say that I don't use condoms and am indescriminate with whom I have sex. I could contract an STD. Is that bad? It's my body. It's my life. Right? But consider that I might spread STDs. Is that bad? It may be argued that people who sleep with me can't hold me responsible because they are responsible for their own well being, and they consciously took the risk when they slept with me. So even up to this point, the morality of my choice is unclear. However, what if I'm doing this without my partner's knowledge? What if my partner believes that I am faithful? I have effectively robbed him/her of his/her choice to protect him-/herself from the risk that I undertake when I sleep with others. It's one thing to accept consequences for my own risks. It's quite another to expect others to share in that burden especially when they don't know about it.


AGREED,who disputed you on this one?? OH AND FAITHFUL IS NOTHING BUT WISHFUL THINKING AND HOPING.people lose almost everytime they fall victim to faith



Posted: Mon Apr 10, 2006 2:18 pm Post subject:

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DL wrote:
APPLAUSE AND THANK YOU,,I TOTALLY AGREE,FLAMES CAUSE THERE OWN TROUBLES AND ARE THE REASON MANY DL MEN CHOOSE TO REMAIN DL,BECAUSE THEY DO NOT WANT TO ASSOCIATE WITH A SCENE THAT HAS SUCH BEHAVIOR IN IT

First, may I point out that posting in all caps + bold-face is called "flaming" and is the internet forum equivalent of shouting. It's considered poor internet etiquette. It isn't necessary to shout to get your points across.

DL wrote:
I also stated that flamboyancy is not natural at all. Science does not support flamboyancy as a natural trait.Flamboyancy is simply exaggerating effeminate traits which include becoming loud and obnoxious and traits of women like gossiping or twitching taken to the extreme which is quite annoying to not only the DL men but the HETEROSEXUALS as well.

It's difficult to say what is natural or not. I'm sure you've heard the phrase "it's all relative." There is no absolute standard of "natural" only what the majority of society deams as "the norm." Just because a thing makes you uncomfortable does not make it unnatural. It just makes you uncomfortable.

DL wrote:
The book sissyphobia talks about how society even in the straight world would rather deal with the masculine homosexual or bisexual than the flamboyant one or transexual one.

A phobia is defined as an irrational fear of something. And having an irrational fear means that it is a fear not based on reason or fact. Have you considered that the book you cite may actually be criticising "the straight world" for its prejudice against effeminacy in men?

DL wrote:
It seems to me you thinking men are DL because of not wanting to deal with the annoying behavior of flamboyant men and creating your own assumption or theory that they lack self confidence or self esteem is just you telling yourself this to cover your anger at why DL men choose not to associate with the homosexual scene because of flamers.

In truth, do you really think it's believable that someone would care so much whom you (or DLs) associate with as to be angered by it? I try not to make such sweeping generalizations as "DLs lack self-esteem." But I do think that many gay and bisexual men stay in the closet because their life situation prohibits them from coming out. If a person has known nothing but homophobia all his life, I can fully understand why he would be reluctant to let anyone know of his homosexual tendancies. There are those who maintain that they are happy in the closet. If so, then more power to them. I've read so many posts on this board, however, espousing the woes of closetted life that I think I'm entitled to be skeptical.

DL wrote:
Realize that men are obligated to hang with what they want,when they choose,just as much as flames are obligated to be a flame.I myself will remain discreet because i simply have come to terms with who i am to myself as well as many many DL guys from marines to thugs on the street that sleep with each other.I realize that this so called mentality that many homosexuals have that ""coming out""is the key to having pride is complete horseshit and rather selfish thoughted to think this is the only way to having pride,when pride is something that is within you.

Each of us has his own idea of what pride is. No one has the right to force anyone else to adopt a philosophy which is not his own. Equivalently, no one should belittle someone else's philosophy. If you are comfortable with who you are, I congratulate you. However, I would invite you to consider how calling someone else's philosophy "horseshit" is inappropriate and confrontational.

DL wrote:
My reason of remaining DL and not associating with the homosexual scene is also because it is not me and because of the mentality many homosexuals have,I am quite content with my well-being as of now and will never change it to impress anyone.

Anyone who tries to force you to change is wrong and has issues. But part of being comfortable with who you are is not being threatened by those who don't accept you. If you are truly secure with your identity, then you should not feel the need to denigrate others, or to physically lash out at others. When I'm called a name, I realize that the other person is just lashing out because he feels insecure. If I care about the person I'd try to find out why so that I can set his mind at ease. If I've got other things to deal with, I might just ignore him. His calling me a name is not a reflection on me. He is only belittling himself by displaying how immature he is.

DL wrote:
Even if i was ever asked am i bisexual or homosexual my answer would be NO.Because for one i am not a homosexual,because homosexuals are attracted to the opposite sex only 2.though i am bisexual i simply will never satisfy a nosey individual by even saying""WHY DO YOU CARE"" OR ""WHATS IT TO YOU""which does nothing but tell that individual "yes"because in there mind only the real heterosexual would say NO!.Have i lied to myself by telling them NO i am not?? Hell no,because i know what i am to myself and i can tell 700 people i am not bisexual and still know what i am to myself.

"Why do you care?" and "What's it to you?" and "It's none of your business" are all defensive responses and as you have observed, they only reveal that you are insecure. Lying about your sexuality (and I'm not saying that lying is necessarily a bad thing), may not reveal your insecurities to others, but it won't hide them from yourself. People want to lash out when they feel threatened. It's a protection mechanism and is completely normal. Part of being mature is controlling the impulse to lash out in inappropriate ways. A mature person suppresses the instinct to strike back, and seeks ways of diffusing situations without resorting to unnecessary confrontation.

An astute person might go further and examine what it was that made him feel annoyed or threatened. It is widely believed that when we feel annoyed or threatened by someone else, it is really because we see something in that person which reminds us of something which we don't like, or would not like to see, in ourselves.

DL wrote:
DUDE,part of being a grown mature adult is realizing A GROWN MAN IS GOING TO DO WHAT A GROWN MAN WANTS TO DO.

I'm somewhat uncomfortable with this statement. I am fully aware that I have little (nor should I have any) control over the actions of others. However, I wouldn't place someone who just did whatever he wanted in very high regard. Part of being mature is being able to control oneself, being able to stop oneself from doing things that hurt others no matter how much one wants to. Being mature is about realizing that one is a member of society and has certain responsibilities as such.

DL wrote:
It seems to me that you cannot realize that PEOPLE PERIOD, ARE GOING TO DO WHATEVER THEY WANT TO DO,and there is simply not a thing you can do to change it forcefully

I beg to differ. There are certainly forces in this world that forcibly oppose people who "do whatever they want to do," especially when what they want to do harms others. Being DL, per se, is not harmful, however, and I don't think it reasonable for anyone to "forcefully" change a DL man. However, I can think of consequences of being DL which can cause harm. But each case has to be considered on its own merits.

Hypothetically, assume I have sex outside my relationship. Without knowing more, no one could judge if that's good or bad. Let's say that I don't use condoms and am indescriminate with whom I have sex. I could contract an STD. Is that bad? It's my body. It's my life. Right? But consider that I might spread STDs. Is that bad? It may be argued that people who sleep with me can't hold me responsible because they are responsible for their own well being, and they consciously took the risk when they slept with me. So even up to this point, the morality of my choice is unclear. However, what if I'm doing this without my partner's knowledge? What if my partner believes that I am faithful? I have effectively robbed him/her of his/her choice to protect him-/herself from the risk that I undertake when I sleep with others. It's one thing to accept consequences for my own risks. It's quite another to expect others to share in that burden especially when they don't know about it.

DL wrote:
instead of attacking these inconsiderate DL men,try encouraging them to USE CONDOMS,USE CONDOMS,afterall this is the big issue with DL men,is cheating and possible STD spreading ... Only encouragement not to cheat or to use a rubber will help. ATTACKING IS WHAT WOMEN AND HOMOSEXUALS DO TO DL MEN,which only makes him respond with anger and continue to do dirt because he feels he is being insulted by someone who is attacking him for doing what he chooses to do as a grown adult.

I agree that attacking someone is the worst way to deal with any problems. I am sympathetic to DL men and wish that there was an easy answer to their problems. Some DL men get married simply because they feel social pressure to do so. They are in fact mostly gay and are using marriage to women as camouflage against homophobic families and friends. Other DL men get married and truly love their wives and children, but are still attracted to men, and can't deny that urge.

That is funny,mostly gay?? The correct term would be mostly homosexual,which to me does not make sense.How can you be mostly homosexual ,by definition the male who sleeps with both male and female is BISEXUAL even if he forces himself to live a bisexual life of sleeping with a woman,he is bisexual.Some homos and heteros argue that bisexual and homosexual are the same.Yet the true one who has knowledge on the labels is aware that,if bisexual is the same as homosexual,it is also the same as heterosexual.I never understood why some homos ignore the side of the male that sleeps with the female and focus only on the action that he does that is similar to his?? MAYBE its an inferior thing or misery that homosexual fails to realize he has.

It's one thing to go after what you want. I would say that a true man pursues his dreams avidly, but also responsibly and honestly, even in the face of derision or rejection.

To engage in destructive behavior simply out of anger and spite is not very mature.

Assume that I say this:

"You dis me for engaging in risky sexual activity, so you are forcing me to do it even more to get back at you."

Would you agree that that is not a particulary reasonable or mature statement to make? First, by engaging in risky sex, I am exposing my own self to harm. So how is that "getting back" at the person who dissed me? Second, if someone could "force" me to do something simply by calling me a few names, how much of my own man am I? I'm not really demonstrating that I'm independent. I'm just demonstrating that I can do the opposite of what someone tells me to do. That's not very impressive.

There is a word for this mentality: petulance.

And there is a very large group of people who engage in it: infants.

I completely understand that you are not saying that you condone this kind of mentality. You are saying that it is a fact of life that there are people out there who have this mentality. And I agree with you that name-calling, ridicule and ostracism are not effective ways of getting them to change their mentality.


AGREED,yet still maturity is still interpreted different with different people.But i agree

I'm afraid that I can't agree. I'm a man, and I certainly don't screw whatever I want, whenever I want. I see a lot of hot men with whom I would like to have sex. But I don't act on that desire because I have committed myself to a monogamous relationship. And I am satisfied with that because I derive so much more from my relationship than sexual gratification.


First off i did not say all men.YET many men are going to screw whatever they want to screw,and though you may desire to screw a bunch of hot men,yet if you chose not to do it,it is a choice you made,just as much as the guy who chose to screw whatever made the choice to do it.You are responsible for your own actions.

MEN ARE GOING TO SCREW,WHAT THEY WANT TO SCREW. the man that does that still falls under this term. Saying ""ALL" men would be incorrect

Good talking to you,,glad we can we disagree without the insults and agree on many things..
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