Some insight on the whole "Str8 acting guys hate femms&

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Straight acting guys
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Some insight on the whole "Str8 acting guys hate femms&

Postby Aquarianprince0088 » Sun May 29, 2005 9:11 pm

Ugh... Where do I even start. This is for all the femms out there who are saying "why do masculine guys hate femms" blah blah blah. First things first.. get over that sh*t. Please honey you sound so pathetic and desperate. I'm a feminine guy myself and you don't see me bitching in this poll begging butch dudes to date me. Do you? Lets think about this for a second. Gay men are OBVIOUSLY attracted to other guys. So naturally the more femminine you are the less attractive your going to be... to a full ass *$#*@# dick sucking straight guy anyway. But so *$#*@# what. I had a caniption when I read that "femm acting straight" poll. Don't you !!EVER!! change for anyone. Being femm is beyond our controll and takes alot more balls then acting straight. So in a sense you have something over the straight acting gay guys. And secondly I know why your all upset. Cause the straight acting ones are ALWAYS the hott ones. I lie to you not. And yes it sucks sometimes because 9 times out of 10 they're the ones who hate femms. But that doesnt mean they're all like that. Trust me honey I've had my share. Be yourself and some one will love you for you...true story. It helps not to think about it too much .. just let it happen. You'll be surprised who you fall for... and who falls for you. And with that the Aquarian Prince--some might say Princess-- Is out ..

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Postby Noodle » Tue May 31, 2005 9:35 am

youre prolly on to something... fellow aquarian. lets hear some more.
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Postby rovie » Wed Jun 01, 2005 9:28 am

Aquarianprince0088
Lets think about this for a second. Gay men are OBVIOUSLY attracted to other guys. So naturally the more femminine you are the less attractive your going to be... to a full ass *$#*@# dick sucking straight guy anyway.


Now that just makes sense.... plus all the other stuff Aquarianprince0088 wrote - and he's an authority.
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Postby icegreen » Wed Jun 01, 2005 10:46 am

to a full ass *$#*@# dick sucking straight guy anyway.


Don't forget the full thigh *$#*@#, dick frotting, hood docking, double jerking, gay guys.
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Postby ChunkJGZX » Wed Jun 01, 2005 12:03 pm

Okay, you lost me halfway through there... but the general theme of your post--here here! It's about time a real expert came in here and confirmed what I've said the whole time. :D
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Postby nitroike » Wed Jun 01, 2005 11:05 pm

I personally have been attracted to straight acting goth guys who wore their hair long, wore black fishnet shirts, and dark makeup.

I hung around enough girls who were into that that it rubbed off on me, but I think a straight guy can 'get away with' a bit more in that department because he has his straightness to counter it.
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Postby ChunkJGZX » Thu Jun 02, 2005 12:53 am

nitroike wrote:I personally have been attracted to straight acting goth guys who wore their hair long, wore black fishnet shirts, and dark makeup.

I hung around enough girls who were into that that it rubbed off on me, but I think a straight guy can 'get away with' a bit more in that department because he has his straightness to counter it.


...I'm... not picking up on your point.
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Postby nitroike » Thu Jun 02, 2005 2:24 am

my point was in relation to the fact that after voting I realized that I was the sole person who didn't vote for option 1. I found that interesting. Maybe I was just raised differently, who knows.
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Postby GX » Thu Jun 02, 2005 10:56 am

I would agree with some of that. That's the sticking point between my bf and I. He is gay so is obviously opposed to my wanting to change(gender) eventually. Even when I let my hair grow out for a awhile it was a turn off to him.

I'm of a different mindset though. If i'm in love with someone i'm probably going to stick by them no matter what happens(as long as it's not cheating around). That's because the part i'm in love with is not their body but their personality. While masculinity might be the initial attraction for me, it's not what keeps the relationship together.
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Re: Some insight on the whole "Str8 acting guys hate fe

Postby dabonsteed » Sat Jun 18, 2005 12:04 am

Aquarianprince0088 wrote:Ugh... Where do I even start. This is for all the femms out there who are saying "why do masculine guys hate femms" blah blah blah. First things first.. get over that sh*t. Please honey you sound so pathetic and desperate.


Before you get too far, I think you've missed the point.
This is the first time I've heard anyone make the case that this is about dating.

Because it isn't.

It's about quotes that say things like "I think of them as women, only I give real women way more respect."

It's about the lip service given to "oh, I think femme guys are okay, I have friends who are femme."

and then secretly saying things like "oh, I'm glad that fag got what he deserved "when someone shares a story about how a femme guy got beaten up/fired for wearing makeup, etc.


Look at the current BMX thread about "if all gay guys were straight acting" and the whole theory that if we were all straight acting, straight men would be more accepting. Guys are jumping on the bandwagon with that one left and right. It's not hard to see the underlying statment there : femmes are the problem. They seem to be under the delusion that this whole civil rights movement wouldn't be necessary if we were all butch. Not realizing that it was the Queens and even the Transgendered that had the balls (irony?) to start tossing the first bricks at the Stonewall Riots.


Meanwhile, where are all these Butch men who have helped us get this far with the gay rights movement? Name one outspoken butch gay man, and Rosie O'Donnell doesn't count. Oh, that's right, there are none. Elton John, Pedro from The Real World, not a lot of machismo in the gay visibility realm unless we start talking Bea Arthur.

Oh wait, I forgot all about the butch gay men who helped. Like, say, Rock Hudson. Oh wait, he was closeted for decades, not very helpful of him.

The point has never been about dating, I don't seem to recall that ever being the case here. The point is that the femme men are often slighted directly, if not indirectly on here left and right.. That's why this place is quickly earning the title Straight Worship.com because with threads on "how to sleep with a straight guy" for starters, we're well on our way!

Actually it was about dating one time. Anyone remember the thread about the femme kid who was having surgery, vocal coaching, and a mannerisms/walking trainer to make him be more butch? He was obsessed with the idea that he would never ever find a masculine boyfriend if he didn't give himself an extreme makeover. That if he didn't change his entire outward appearance, learn to lower his voice unnaturally, get jaw implants, etc.. that he would never get a hot handsome butch boyfriend, and therefore, never be happy. Yes, where was that big red carpet laid out for our femme friends? I guess it was at the cleaners because the majority of the board was like "Good for you! Great idea! Wow, I wish I'd thought of that!" I was one of a select few that said "hey, maybe he's just fine as he is, maybe what this kid needs is a therapist." Nope. People made the laughable assertion that if you can dye your hair or go to the gym to look more attractive, then certainly brainwashing yourself and putting yourself through a self-styled Ex-Femme Ministry was not a downward spiral, but rather another "self improvement".


What's funny is, there's this claim that it's okay to be femme here, this claim that it's quite alright to be a big old Queen, and yet that doesn't seem to be much follow through. And when I, or Billy, point people's prejudices out to them, or show them their hypocrisy ---suddenly we're the word police trying to stiffle expression. Where I come from, we have a different title for that: "Calling People On Their Bullsh*t."


You just gotta wonder what's going on in someone's head when they use phrases like "real men" or "men who act like men". The hidden suggestion is right there, Femme men aren't "real", and they certainly don't "act like men." Nevermind that's a subjective viewpoint, and it's the same viewpoint that homophobes use when bashing in someone's head. Nevermind the fact that what really makes a man a man is what's in his heart, the honor and courage he has, not whether he minces or swaggers when he walks.

So Prince, while I wholeheartedly agree with you that we should love and respect ourselves and be ourselves no matter what......that is often the lip service some members dish out in threads like this, while the ugliness continues in other threads.








In case anyone was wondering, I didn't vote, because there wasn't an option for "not caring much one way or the other."
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Re: Some insight on the whole "Str8 acting guys hate fe

Postby Smitty » Sat Jun 18, 2005 6:03 pm

dabonsteed wrote:What's funny is, there's this claim that it's okay to be femme here, this claim that it's quite alright to be a big old Queen, and yet that doesn't seem to be much follow through.

I'm confused. What kind of 'follow through' would you like to see?
dabonsteed wrote:You just gotta wonder what's going on in someone's head when they use phrases like "real men" or "men who act like men". The hidden suggestion is right there, Femme men aren't "real", and they certainly don't "act like men."

One reason the fem/butch threads derail is that we don't have an agreed upon vocabulary. Misunderstandings are rampant. In one thread, it was suggested to me that 'masculine' was a better choice than 'straight acting'. I tried that for a while, but doesn't that suggest fems aren't masculine? An undesired corollary.
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Postby dabonsteed » Sat Jun 18, 2005 11:59 pm

Smitty, follow through is when you say "yes" to something and then your actions follow that decision. Practicing what you preach.


IE, when it's said that "everyone is welcome here" and there's all this talk of "some of my best friends are femme." I'd like that to actually be what goes on. IE, you can't complain about how awful nelly drag queens are and then say "but I have great femme friends". You can't talk about your great femme friends and then say "yes, if we were all straight-acting, the rest of society would accept us."
(I don't mean you personally, I mean all of us.)

I'd also like it if it wasn't always me and Billy taking people to task about their latent femme-phobia (or whatever you want to call it).

I'd agree that the vocab is part of the problem. But I see a lot of "whatever you're being too sensitive" coming from the "femmes are the problem camp." it's a distractionary tactic to avoid facing the issue.


Let's face it, a good deal of this board, especially it's lurkers are men who are not entirely out of the closet, are in the process of coming out, or have decided to never come out to anyone. They express a great deal of disgust, anger, and uneasiness around femme men that goes beyond a lack of sexual attraction. This board's members does a lot in the way of understanding but not a lot of point out that "hey, femme guys are people too, you don't have to date them, but they're in this with you." There's a tendency to circle the wagons closer and say "yeah, those femmes bug me too, they should all go away." Which feeds the fire.


We get a troll or two in here every once in awhile who gets dismissed as a flake who didn't bother to read the board. I've been here for 4 years, off and on, and I can safely say that the casual observer wouldn't have too much trouble getting that impression from actually reading the board.


I dated a racist, briefly, and he was so blind to it that it was beyond explanation. He didn't figure it out until I dumped him. He's now working through that issue, that had been so deeply ingrained that he was unaware that it existed. I wouldn't say the board as a whole suffers the same problem in relation to femme. Times when a thread suggest the world would be a better place if femmes didn't exist.
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Postby rovie » Sun Jun 19, 2005 9:07 am

dabonsteed
I'd also like it if it wasn't always me and Billy taking people to task about their latent femme-phobia (or whatever you want to call it).


You sure it's just you two that stand up for femmes in that way?

I agree with the rest though.
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Postby Smitty » Sun Jun 19, 2005 2:17 pm

dabonsteed wrote:IE, you can't complain about how awful nelly drag queens are and then say "but I have great femme friends".

Nelly drag queens would be a subset of femmes, wouldn't they? It's entirely possible for someone to (wrongly) think that all nelly drag queens are awful and still have femme friends.
dabonsteed wrote:You can't talk about your great femme friends and then say "yes, if we were all straight-acting, the rest of society would accept us."

I'm confident both of those statements have been made here, but are you confident they were made by the same person?
dabonsteed wrote:I'd also like it if it wasn't always me and Billy taking people to task about their latent femme-phobia (or whatever you want to call it).

I don't believe it is always you and Billy. This made me think, though. It's the old 'silence is complicity' thing, and I don't really accept that as an absolute. On very few occasions, I've read hateful, generalized statements about femmes and I haven't replied. In the cases I can recall, the statements were made by very inexperienced young guys and what went through my mind was, "This kid has some living to do." I don't think attacking or lecturing will lead to anything. When people get out in the world and start meeting and interacting with different kinds of people - for some - a lightbulb clicks on - 'These people are just like anybody else.' I don't know how to give that experience to someone in prose.
dabonsteed wrote:Let's face it, a good deal of this board, especially it's lurkers are men who are not entirely out of the closet, are in the process of coming out, or have decided to never come out to anyone. They express a great deal of disgust, anger, and uneasiness around femme men that goes beyond a lack of sexual attraction.

And I could theorize, but it has been beaten to death in other threads. I think a lot of guys here are in transition, in the process of coming to terms with themselves and others and, more often than not, coming out. A tolerance if not understanding and acceptance of femmes can be part of that process. None of us are finished products.
dabonsteed wrote:There's a tendency to circle the wagons closer and say "yeah, those femmes bug me too, they should all go away." Which feeds the fire.

Um. People generalize. (How's that for a generalization? :wink: ) You can always ask, "Which femmes and why do they bug you?"

I don't like personal attacks. Barring that, in discussion, I'd rather have people feel free to express themselves even if I don't agree with them. Perhaps you aren't sensitive to them, lol, but there have been a lot of anti-straight-acting comments made here, too. Some of the things that have been said mystify me, but they give me some insight as to where the other person is coming from.

Anyway, I learned long ago that if everyone likes me I must be doing something wrong. :wink:
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Postby dabonsteed » Sun Jun 19, 2005 11:37 pm

Smitty wrote:
I don't believe it is always you and Billy. This made me think, though. It's the old 'silence is complicity' thing, and I don't really accept that as an absolute. On very few occasions, I've read hateful, generalized statements about femmes and I haven't replied. In the cases I can recall, the statements were made by very inexperienced young guys and what went through my mind was, "This kid has some living to do." I don't think attacking or lecturing will lead to anything. When people get out in the world and start meeting and interacting with different kinds of people - for some - a lightbulb clicks on - 'These people are just like anybody else.' I don't know how to give that experience to someone in prose.

You have a point, you can't "hand" that experience to someone. But I don't think it's a good idea to skip out on an oppurtunity to show someone the world from a different perspective. Sometimes that's enough to get someobody thinking, questioning, re-examining their ideas and THEN they have the epiphany the next time they're around a femme person. I've seen this to be the case more often (with this and other bigoted perspectives) than them randomly coming to that conclusion on their own.

Here's a problem I have, and you've touched on it. I don't believe telling someone that they're perspective is skewed or misguided is the same as being thought police. I never tell someone they can't think what they think. I may tell them their viewpoint is inconsitent with verifiable fact, that their viewpoint suggests or states a lot of things that are simply not true.....but I never tell them they CAN'T believe or say or think what they think.
People often interpret a confrontation about their viewpoint as being "thought police". It really isn't. Police arrest people and throw them in jail. They tell people they can't do something. They restrict and do not allow them to do things. When you confront someone, that's not what you're doing at all.

For example, telling someone "Hey, using the word fag is offensive. It bothers people." isn't being thought police. It's conveying a simple idea. The rest of the thought is basically: "You can use the word fag all you want to, but realize it's going to make some people angry. If you don't want to offend or piss people off, you might want to choose another word." Someone acting as thought police would say "you CAN'T use the word fag."

If we never confronted people, we would have a lot more problems than we do. If we didn't point out to people that what they're saying, what they're doing may come across more negatively than they might like ---- they might not know. My brother, for example, can be a complete moron when it comes to social interraction. One Christmas it took me over an hour to explain to him why buying our parents the Nico-derm patches so they could quit smoking was NOT a good idea for a present. He really was convinced that they would love them, just because they had mentioned they wanted to quit. Some people are that thick. He's very smart, you'd think he could figure things like that out. But I've found that people are their very core are walking contradicitons, so sometimes a confrontation is a good idea. Sometimes you help a well meaning person from getting their @ss kicked for saying the wrong thing.
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Postby Sugar Rush » Mon Jun 20, 2005 11:21 pm

Smitty wrote:It's the old 'silence is complicity' thing, and I don't really accept that as an absolute. On very few occasions, I've read hateful, generalized statements about femmes and I haven't replied. In the cases I can recall, the statements were made by very inexperienced young guys and what went through my mind was, "This kid has some living to do." I don't think attacking or lecturing will lead to anything. When people get out in the world and start meeting and interacting with different kinds of people - for some - a lightbulb clicks on - 'These people are just like anybody else.' I don't know how to give that experience to someone in prose.


I think this is an excellent point.
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Postby tigakub » Thu Jun 23, 2005 1:35 am

A lot of what dabonsteed's said really speaks to me. When I think of gay activism (and this is me just talking out of my ass) I automatically think loud, in-your-face cross-dressing queen, pushing the envelope. I think it's great. But there is a side of me that questions, does that represent me? And if not, what am I doing to forward the gay cause? Is it because I can "pass" (I know that's a horrible word) so I don't have to fear ridicule or persecution?

Being around femmes DOES make me uncomfortable, but I realize that it's my own prejudice and that I have to fight it. But the reverse happens too. I sometimes feel that femmes look down on me because I don't fit that stereotype. It's almost as if I make an effort to talk to them, they treat me like I'm not good enough for them.

But I would NEVER attack a man for being femme. Haven't I experienced prejudice myself?
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Postby I_hate_myself_s0_much » Mon Jul 04, 2005 3:07 pm

.................
Last edited by I_hate_myself_s0_much on Sun Mar 04, 2007 10:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby dabonsteed » Mon Jul 04, 2005 3:23 pm

Well, don't go looking for other people to make you feel like you're a vital human being. You've got to do that yourself. So what if someone isn't attracted to you? So what if a thousand people aren't attracted to you. I'm not exactly prom king myself, but I don't let it bother me. It's not my fault someone's not into me. They're just missing out 8)
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Postby tigakub » Tue Jul 05, 2005 10:42 am

I_hate_myself_s0_much wrote:I don't care whether some masculine gay guys prefer other masculine guys, but when it seems as if NO guys are interested in me, then I start to feel as if there is something wrong with me for being effeminate. Of course this website caters to straight acting men so of course it's going to attract straght acting guys who are into other straight acting guys. I've never been with a guy (who I was attracted to) in my entire life. I've met some guys who would date me, but since there aren't very many I can't afford to be picky.


I'm into bears. But I'm not a bear and bears at bear sites and bars are mostly into other bears. So I don't go to those.

Are you looking in the right places? There must be straight-acting men out there who are into femmes. There have to be.
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Postby dabonsteed » Tue Jul 05, 2005 11:05 am

Of course there are, or at least guys who are open to dating a femme. You may have to hunt around before you find them.
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Re: Some insight on the whole "Str8 acting guys hate fe

Postby UnRepublicanstraightactor » Sun Jul 17, 2005 2:44 pm

dabonsteed wrote:Meanwhile, where are all these Butch men who have helped us get this far with the gay rights movement? Name one outspoken butch gay man, and Rosie O'Donnell doesn't count. Oh, that's right, there are none. Elton John, Pedro from The Real World, not a lot of machismo in the gay visibility realm unless we start talking Bea Arthur.


Well, Madonna once claimed that Rupert Everett was a "non-stereotypical", openly gay guy and his appearance in "The Next Best Thing" movie helped shatter stereotypes... but I wouldn't exactly call Madonna an expert on anything... :P
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Postby dabonsteed » Sun Jul 17, 2005 6:01 pm

well compared to here dancers, maybe.


Although the cowboys in the Don't Tell Me video are all rugged and stuff.

But that's reaching.
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Postby UnRepublicanstraightactor » Sun Jul 17, 2005 6:16 pm

dabonsteed wrote:Although the cowboys in the Don't Tell Me video are all rugged and stuff.


And definitely gay... and boy are some of them hot!!
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Re: Some insight on the whole "Str8 acting guys hate fe

Postby blu » Sun Jul 17, 2005 6:17 pm

UnRepublicanstraightactor wrote:
dabonsteed wrote:Meanwhile, where are all these Butch men who have helped us get this far with the gay rights movement? Name one outspoken butch gay man, and Rosie O'Donnell doesn't count. Oh, that's right, there are none. Elton John, Pedro from The Real World, not a lot of machismo in the gay visibility realm unless we start talking Bea Arthur.


Well, Madonna once claimed that Rupert Everett was a "non-stereotypical", openly gay guy and his appearance in "The Next Best Thing" movie helped shatter stereotypes... but I wouldn't exactly call Madonna an expert on anything... :P

Please, Madonna is an icon :arrow:
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