learning to be feminine?

[dabonsteed]

I've heard guys talk about how some guy they knew was all butch, comes out of closet and turns directly into into a flaming queen.

There are some closet types who've told me they refuse to come out because they fear this will happen to them, or they think others will expect this behavior of them.

Other people seem to think that this is weird or bad, or that these men are being girly to get attention.

Well, allow me to give you my spin, and I think we all have something to contribute on this one.

I think it comes down to two things:

Born Queen
As in that's the way these guys are. I have a feeling some closet types are just big old queens underneath, but they've been carefully policing their mannerisms, fashion sense, laugh, walk, even purposely deepening their voice (i've known guys who purposely smoked to make their voice ragged so they would appear more "manly"). Rock Hudson would watch the dailies (daily run of all the takes of a scene filmed that day, or the day before) and had the right to toss out a take he didn't like. This was how he appeared to be manly, he edited himself before, during, and after his performance. He went to every party with 2 men, even on dates, because 2 men might be figured as a gay couple, 3 guys are just pals.
So these guys finally bust through that closet door and they're free. Hooray, and they catch themselves continuing to police their walk, their talk, their passion for designer clothing, hair products, movies, music, etc and they go "you know what, f*ck that, I'll do what I want! I'm not hiding the real me anymore!" so what was butch before, is now a happier, healthier, feminine gay man. Much to the horror of friends, family, and old acquaintences.
When you think about it, yes, maybe this guy was more attractive to you before he came out, but he got that way by beating himself up and effectively pretending to be something he's not. Squelching and squashing every single thought, desire, and way of expressing himself that felt natural. Imagine trying to act girly on purpose 24 hours a day, you'd hate it. Same with mister closet.

Girling it Up!
Some guys come out of the closet alone. They figure it out, and decide to come out with little to no gay men around. Their role models come from TV, movies, etc. If they do know some gay people, the likelyhood that they know anyone like the butch blokes on this board is HIGHLY unlikely. More than likely they know a slightly older, fairly fem gay guy or two. Why? Because they make themselves visible. Being low key is looked down on because that's what the self-hating guys do. That's who Mr. Newbie used to be. They aren't exposed to Regular Joe Homo. So they learn to be fem because they think that's what they're supposed to be. Like anyone joining a new club, so to speak, they want to fit in. The party hardy fem guys seem to be having a great time! They learn about disco divas, and designer clothes, and drugged out sex parties because for all they know that's what being gay is. They're blindly trying to find an identity within a new social circle, a new world. So they try on ideas, thoughts, mannerisms, to see what fits and what doesn't.
I think these guys overdo it for a few years, then, as they meet other gay men, figure out that not everyone is a big old queen. There's all kinds of colors in this rainbow.

So when you see this transformation, don't assume that A) The guy is faking being fem B) that he was better off before, and C) he'll be like this forever.

Thoughts?

[dabonsteed]

Did I inadvertently raise a question and completely answer it so that no one feels like posting?


damnit.

[Ben]

I think there are as many answers as there are femme guys.
Same as there are as many answers to the reasons why a guy is straight behaving, butch, butcher or ultra hard core leather macho. (btw the latter can very well act in a femme way too)

I answered alternative no. 1, for lack of better options.
It could very well be all of the alternatives plus some. I have no doubt about that what so ever.

We have had some pretty intense discussions about it here before. The tendency is to defend the type you are and the type you like, and make hasted generalizations about the other types. Most guys here do that, myself included.

Dabonsteed,
it was a good question and I think (and hope) your thread take off soon.
Let's just hope it doesn't crash and burn like most of the other threads on this, very...very fragile and delicate subject.

[rovie]

Dabonsteed

So when you see this transformation, don't assume that A) The guy is faking being fem B) that he was better off before, and C) he'll be like this forever.

I agree. BTW it's amusing when a guy poses a complex question and then answers it comprehensively. It was a very good and thought-provoking read, steed.

I do reflect on how short life is. I've come to the conclusion that if a guy is born one way and nurturing then takes him another way and then he decides to revert to his inner personality or take another course ... then he meets other guys and changes his style again - well, good on him I say.

Like it's not as if we are talking about serious pathological behaviour. It's just behaviour that some of us are unconfortable with or just think it's plain stupid. But the point is that it's their life and they can do with it what they freakin want.

It's in fact very rare for a gay (or any) guy to totally change his personality in the long term. Sure we have our little fads that last a while but in the end we tend to settle into a behaviour that we feel comfortable with.

Rove

[RedMenace]

I would think that environment would have some impact along the way.

[BlackmanXXX]

I couldn't act effeminate even if I wanted to. I am big and tall and hairy. I act more "guy-like" than most straight men and with me, it's real. Not an act. I dont know anything about fashion. I dont like girlie-stuff. I dont like hanging around women and listening to them talk for long periods of time. I kind of fall asleep. No offense to them but that's how it's always been. Same with boring teachers in my classes. Yeah, it's real.

[Mike82]

Same here but i'm not too hairy and i acted more like a kid than a aldult with all those games i like to play and cartoons i watch regularly.

[SpendingSomeTime]

Only point I can make is "effeminate" is attached to a lot of very superficial things, mannerisms, catch-phrases, fashion. All of these things change over the course of your life. LIke the analogy of joining a club and picking up on things they say and do, people do this all the time. They even change hour by hour depending upon the people around them. Effeminates butch it up in different company, and since there is no law of physics to prevent it... butches will femme it up in other company. (Even if they don't mean to or unwilling to recognize it).

At 60 you will not act and talk the way you did at 40, and 40 won't match 25, and 25 won't match 16. We do change. Certain parts of our personality tend to remain, but people do change (though almost never consciously IMHO), they mellow, embitter, relax, give up, etc over time.

I find it difficult to figure out what is real and what is put on. Most people take on various notinos from surrounding culture(including family) and build that into themselves and then call it "who they are" when we are mostly what was around us that we picked up. Picking apart oneselves to understand where the pieces come from and why is mind boggling.

I couldn't answer the poll. I would lean somewhere between the choices.

[Lesley R. Charles]

I was born with a female wired brain in a male body. So in my case being feminine has always been natural to me. I knew I was different since I was three. I wanted dolls and tea sets and got toy cars instead. So I guess it depends on how natural the femme guy in question acts.

Lesley

[deathbrinegr]

They learn about disco divas, and designer clothes, and drugged out sex parties because for all they know that's what being gay is. They're blindly trying to find an identity within a new social circle, a new world. So they try on ideas, thoughts, mannerisms, to see what fits and what doesn't.
I think these guys overdo it for a few years, then, as they meet other gay men, figure out that not everyone is a big old queen. There's all kinds of colors in this rainbow.

OR end up like the sad old tosser who posted on the old incarnation of the board saying "I've never been with a guy i've been attracted to" XD

[J]

I can't answer that poll question. There needs to be an "All of the above" choice. That applies only to the guys who do act feminine, whereas I make an effort not to (no dancing, waving my hands around, lisping, saying words like f****ous, etc).

[GX]

I could act feminine but I wouldn't do it while in a male body because I think that's just weird


When i'm alone with my bf though I do tend to slip into a less than masculine mode.

Gay femmes just seem abit to much though. They over exaggerate the female mannerisms which makes them look really silly.

[Lesley R. Charles]

GX, I agree when it is gay men acting effeminate. There are some, myself included, where it is naturally an expression of myself. That is who I am and I am comfortable with that. Just as bad are the ones who act overly macho and also become a caricture of men. The point I am making is just be yourself whether feminine or masculine. That is why I am comfortable with this board, most of the guys here express themselves as who they are.

[qwertz]

I came out to my parents and they told me I couldn't be gay because gays are girly. In order to convince my parents I began to act girly. That's the hardest thing I have ever done in my life. Ever since I wonder how one can be a girl or a woman.

First of all I became aware of the fact I had never looked at women. I had to focus all my attention on a subject I had not the slightest interest in. Then I had to think about everything I was doing. This was extremely complicated. And then actually do it!!! I even couldn't play the role.

The above does not mean I don't like feminine men. On the contrary. As long as sex is concerned I usually will choose the macho male except sometimes. The feminine men are the only ones giving gayness visibility in society, be it that they distort, misrepresent or "travesty" it. Through the glasses of society however only the feminine ones are actually visible. As long as you are simply a "man", you are completely invisible. Stonewall was the work of queens. So I honor all feminine men.

[Learning]

Social reformer John Stuart Mill said this about the difficulty of deciding what makes someone act submissive. Although he wrote this comment about women and men, it could apply to gay and straight men.

"As I have already said more than once, I consider it a presumption in anyone to pretend to decide [what gay men] are or are not, can or cannot be, by natural constitution. They have always hitherto been kept, as far as regards spontaneous development, in so unnatural a state that their nature cannot but have been greatly distorted and disguised; and no one can safely pronounce that if [gay men's] nature were left to choose its direction as freely as [straight] men's, and if no artificial bent were attempted to be given to it except that required by the conditions of human society, and given to both [gay and straight men] alike, there would be any material difference, or perhaps any difference at all, in the character and capacities which would unfold themselves."

From J.S. Mill's "On the Subjugation of Women"

[furface]

John Stuart Mill (1806-1873) published On the Subjugation of Women in 1869. This thread 'died' Wed Dec 29, 2004 3:25 am.

Nearly all your post have an... academic/clinic tone to them. Are you trolling for quotes and/or reactions to fill out a thesis or something?

[nimby]

I think you hit it Unca Lou.

[furface]

Mike, don't jump to conclusions. Learning may well just be curious and not researching anything a'tall.

[nimby]

I read this great little sentence last night, and it really made me think:

"Gentle boys are called sissies, but gentle men are called...gentlemen."

It reminded me of the few times I was called a sissy as a kid, and how it hurt. But it also reminded me of how often I've been called a gentleman, and how good it made me feel. All in one little sentence.

[spicyboi]

hmmm I've always been feminine in my ways, but have masked it for most of my life with learned masculinity. I'm still closeted seeing as most people, even gay guys don't accept effeminate men. I tried to be me publicly, but it turned out terribly, so I'm still putting on a show for everyone (family, friends, ect.) and acting straight. I don't have a fem voice, but my inner voice in my mind has always been a female and I've got to hide it all away. Why does it have to be so outrageous to just be me? It's easier to just be me alone, then to have to deal with other people projecting themselves onto me.

[nimby]

Sorry you feel that way. not all people dislike femme guys, I certianly don't. But I reckon that it won't get any easier for you if you keep hiding yourself.

[Daknee]

hmmm I've always been feminine in my ways, but have masked it for most of my life with learned masculinity. I'm still closeted seeing as most people, even gay guys don't accept effeminate men. I tried to be me publicly, but it turned out terribly, so I'm still putting on a show for everyone (family, friends, ect.) and acting straight. I don't have a fem voice, but my inner voice in my mind has always been a female and I've got to hide it all away. Why does it have to be so outrageous to just be me? It's easier to just be me alone, then to have to deal with other people projecting themselves onto me.

spicyboi, I can't stress the value in being yourself. Somtimes easier said than done, I know. But when you are yourself the inner value you have will begin to come through and all aspects of youself will begin to emgerge and grow. When this happens you will be happier. When we are ourselves we begin to attract and find others of our own "tribe". When this happens we feel less of a square peg in a round hole. Here is my last blog post for you to read perphaps it may "speak" to you.

Magic Foundation: Be Yourself

First some foundation preparation to think about for yourself before the magic you use can be more effective. Once again be childlike. Children do not care about keeping up with the Joneses. They, as we all should be, are themselves. All children are unique and individual precious gems each and unto themselves. No façade or acting as they think others think they should act. Begin now to free your soul your spirit by being and acting more your own special and unique jewel. Here are some quotes from people you may have heard of, sharing their wisdom on individuality.
Appear as You Are
most people are other people.
Their thoughts are someone else's opinions,
their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation.
Oscar Wilde, De Profundis, 1905

Always be a first-rate version of yourself,
instead of a second-rate version of somebody else.
Judy Garland

We are so accustomed to disguise ourselves to others
that in the end we become disguised to ourselves.
François Duc de La Rochefoucauld

It takes courage to grow up and become who you really are.
E.E. Cummings

There is just one life for each of us: our own.
Euripides

Appear as you are. Be as you appear.
Rumi

Let the world know you as you are, not as you think you should be,
because sooner or later, if you are posing, you will forget the pose,
and then where are you?
Fanny Brice

Be who you are and say what you feel,
because those who mind don't matter
and those who matter don't mind.
Dr. Seuss

You must have control of the authorship of your own destiny.

The pen that writes your life story must be held in your own hand.
Irene C. Kassorla

You were born an original. Don't die a copy.
John Mason

Why try to be someone you're not?
Life is hard enough without adding impersonation to the skills required.
Robert Brault

The white light streams down to be broken up by those human prisms
into all the colors of the rainbow.
Charles R. Brown

[Learning]

Dr. Louann Brizendine says the nature vs. nurture debate related to gender identity is dead because people have natural tendencies from hormones and also learn to act in certain ways because of strong social training.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9KCoJE9R6k