Don't ask, don't tell in the home

Was it tough or was it easy, or are you still locked in? Tell the world anonymously about your gayness should you choose.

Moderators: selective_soldier, furface, foxeyes2, olywaguy

Don't ask, don't tell in the home

Postby sean304 » Sat Dec 31, 2011 3:46 pm

Hello everyone,
I am new to this website and pretty new to the whole gay thing. (I really wish there a better word for it.) Anyway, I was wondering if other people have the same family dynamics as I do. Last year I got into an accident and was in a coma for a couple weeks. The calvary (my family) arrived and pretty much invaded my personal living space and found out a bunch of things I didn't want them to find out. I was living a double life and the walls I carefully constructed all came tumbling down. There was brief talk about "just wanting you to be happy" without really mentioning anything else they saw and knew. Since that time, talk of grandchildren and finding 'the one' has ceased. I have only recently been able to come out to myself so the issue is uncomfortable to me. I don't really have to come out to them now that they know and I should be happy. However, I was extremely close to my family and it kind of hurts that they reacted to my true self with shame and secrets. I don't talk about it, they don't talk about it but it's in the room when some relative or family friend makes a derogatory gay joke. I feel less close with them now that they know more about me. Anyone with opinions on this matter would be helpful.
Thanks,
Sean
sean304
 
Posts: 12
Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2011 10:37 pm

Re: Don't ask, don't tell in the home

Postby Cachasa » Tue Jan 03, 2012 4:55 am

I don't think anyone really comes here anymore. Sorry about that.

But I was here for old times sake and saw both your posts. Before I go further, I would suggest that you still see a counselor who has some experience dealing with gay men and/or substance abuse. You might be able to find one at a Pride center or some other organization in your city. If you live in a town take weekend and visit the one in the nearest city. Please don't try to go it alone.


You were outed in a very strange way. It may take time for the rest of your family to come to terms with it especially since you yourself have only recently come to terms with it. Given your past as you've described in another post, I think that the first step for you doesn't involve the family. It's more about self acceptance for you, at this point.

Your first step should be to try to start looking for a loving relationship with another man. Don't force it to happen just start casually dating (I mean really dating NOT cruising). You don't have to wait to find Mr. Right to come out to the family. Just start looking. It's an important part of reconciling with yourself. Also, for dating you should avoid having sex for the first little while it helps create an actual relationship before hand and more importantly, it will help separate out guys who are serious about a relationship and guys who just want to fu**. If you're having trouble coming up with ideas about what 2 gay guys do on a date its pretty much the same for straight people. Movies and coffee and all that. :)

You might also want to try getting involved with the gay community. Not the scene! In fact I think you should stay away from the scene entirly. Get away from the clubs, bathhouses, crusing spots, crusing gyms ect... Get involved with the community. Volunteer at a gay themed not for profit organization. Or if you can find one, join a gay sports league. It's important to meet other gay lesbian and trans people who can just be friends with.

Also, from your other post I thought I would mention... Not all gay men are masculine, but in my opinion part of accepting yourself as gay and masculine is also accepting them as gay and effeminate don't be embarrassed by them.
Cachasa
Member
 
Posts: 176
Joined: Wed Feb 27, 2008 2:40 pm
Location: Shilo Manitoba Canada

Re: Don't ask, don't tell in the home

Postby Cachasa » Tue Jan 03, 2012 5:09 am

Also....Your family may not be reacting with shame about your gayness. It must of been very embarrassing for them to find what they did how they did. Could you imagine them being like, "Well honey, I was going through your bedroom and found a bunch of gay porn, anal beads, KY and a bondage swing. Anything you want to share?" Talk about awkward! :mrgreen:

Seriously though, Talk to some of them one on one. Do it in a public place (so things don't get out of hand) over tea or something make sure to use words like, "gay" so there is no confusion.

You have a history of scret drug abuse right? I'm going out on a limb here but I'm guessing the coma revield that as well right? So take into consideration that they may just be feeling overwellmed as well.
Cachasa
Member
 
Posts: 176
Joined: Wed Feb 27, 2008 2:40 pm
Location: Shilo Manitoba Canada

Re: Don't ask, don't tell in the home

Postby Cachasa » Tue Jan 03, 2012 5:10 am

Hope that helps.
Cachasa
Member
 
Posts: 176
Joined: Wed Feb 27, 2008 2:40 pm
Location: Shilo Manitoba Canada

Re: Don't ask, don't tell in the home

Postby nimby » Wed Jan 04, 2012 9:36 pm

Talk about an elephant in the room, eh? Wow.

I think you should comfront them, but don't be confrontational. Owe up to it that you lied, and state why you lied to them. Then come clean that this is the real you, always has been and always will. Then leave it. Let them process it. It's their issue and it's new to them too. Give them some time.

Best of luck and please keep us updated. Your shared experience can help others.
"Why do we have asteroids in the hemisphere and hemmorroids in the a$$ ? "
User avatar
nimby
Veteran Member
 
Posts: 2906
Joined: Thu May 08, 2008 3:35 pm
Location: Toronto, ON

Re: Don't ask, don't tell in the home

Postby ProMale » Sat Jan 07, 2012 4:39 pm

First, I'm happy to hear that you're not a fan of the word "gay." It's probably my least favorite word in the language. (My favorite might be "homosexual," or "man.")

Now, to the point:

Any intimation to the effect that you have been dishonest with your family is quite outrageous to me. (Btw, a question about spelling: when you called them the "calvary," did you mean "calvary" as in "ordeal", or "cavalry" as in "horse-borne army"?) Like many homophobic families, they felt entitled to your trust and closeness; and yet you wisely followed your intuition and built those "walls." If the rightness of that decision is not obvious from the family's history of "derogatory gay jokes," it should be amply obvious from their recent behavior: they are not making you feel comfortable, and their treatment of you has become phony at best, otherwise they would have continued to express hope that you'll find "the one," only they'd be talking about a male instead. So the family may well say that they care about you and "want you to be happy," but---and it may shock you to hear this---their deeds, their uncomfortable silences, and their "shame and secrets" show that they don't really care about you in any honest or meaningful way. This is actually not surprising, because every time they suggested that they loved you, there's a sense in which they weren't addressing you at all; instead, they were expressing an expectation that you fit yourself into their plans. In short, it is they who have been "lying" to you, all your life.

I encourage you to distance yourself emotionally from your family as quickly as possible. Adopt a new, pragmatic attitude: since they have used you for their own ideologized purposes, and since they are now being dishonest and disrespectful, cut your losses and find ways to use them for your own profit. Continue to claim that you love them, and be likable, diplomatic, and politically shrewd. Above all, take care not to do or say anything to jeopardize the inheritance they may have set aside for you in their will. Your description of them and of their friends suggests that their unpleasantness runs deep, so what you absolutely must not do is hope that they will somehow improve or become more accepting. I realize this may be hard for you to hear. But the data you've given suggest that you should divest from the "cavalry" and find your way into a new world of better people.
ProMale
Newbie
 
Posts: 21
Joined: Mon Jun 23, 2008 10:58 pm

Re: Don't ask, don't tell in the home

Postby nimby » Sat Jan 07, 2012 8:02 pm

ProMale wrote:First, I'm happy to hear that you're not a fan of the word "gay." It's probably my least favorite word in the language. (My favorite might be "homosexual," or "man.")

Now, to the point:

Any intimation to the effect that you have been dishonest with your family is quite outrageous to me. (Btw, a question about spelling: when you called them the "calvary," did you mean "calvary" as in "ordeal", or "cavalry" as in "horse-borne army"?) Like many homophobic families, they felt entitled to your trust and closeness; and yet you wisely followed your intuition and built those "walls." If the rightness of that decision is not obvious from the family's history of "derogatory gay jokes," it should be amply obvious from their recent behavior: they are not making you feel comfortable, and their treatment of you has become phony at best, otherwise they would have continued to express hope that you'll find "the one," only they'd be talking about a male instead. So the family may well say that they care about you and "want you to be happy," but---and it may shock you to hear this---their deeds, their uncomfortable silences, and their "shame and secrets" show that they don't really care about you in any honest or meaningful way. This is actually not surprising, because every time they suggested that they loved you, there's a sense in which they weren't addressing you at all; instead, they were expressing an expectation that you fit yourself into their plans. In short, it is they who have been "lying" to you, all your life.

I encourage you to distance yourself emotionally from your family as quickly as possible. Adopt a new, pragmatic attitude: since they have used you for their own ideologized purposes, and since they are now being dishonest and disrespectful, cut your losses and find ways to use them for your own profit. Continue to claim that you love them, and be likable, diplomatic, and politically shrewd. Above all, take care not to do or say anything to jeopardize the inheritance they may have set aside for you in their will. Your description of them and of their friends suggests that their unpleasantness runs deep, so what you absolutely must not do is hope that they will somehow improve or become more accepting. I realize this may be hard for you to hear. But the data you've given suggest that you should divest from the "cavalry" and find your way into a new world of better people.


:shock: Holy sh*t!!! Man, are you for real? Obviously you have huge issues. How about NOT bringing your baggage to the table when offering advice to others. I hate to say this but I think it's guys like you who give gay men a bad rap. Grow up and maybe seek some councelling of your own.

Holy Hanna!
"Why do we have asteroids in the hemisphere and hemmorroids in the a$$ ? "
User avatar
nimby
Veteran Member
 
Posts: 2906
Joined: Thu May 08, 2008 3:35 pm
Location: Toronto, ON

Re: Don't ask, don't tell in the home

Postby ProMale » Sat Jan 07, 2012 10:09 pm

nimby wrote: :shock: Holy sh*t!!! Man, are you for real? Obviously you have huge issues. How about NOT bringing your baggage to the table when offering advice to others. I hate to say this but I think it's guys like you who give gay men a bad rap. Grow up and maybe seek some councelling of your own.

Holy Hanna!


Gee, I must have touched a nerve. Too bad that hysterics is the only way you know to manage your fear that I could be right.

And by the way, I'm not gay. I'm homosexual. Oh, but I forgot: to you, that just confirms that I've got "baggage." :D
ProMale
Newbie
 
Posts: 21
Joined: Mon Jun 23, 2008 10:58 pm

Re: Don't ask, don't tell in the home

Postby nimby » Sat Jan 07, 2012 10:34 pm

Dude, change "hysterics" to "shock" and you're getting closer. I'm shocked how one human being can have such malice towards a complete stranger. Really sad.
"Why do we have asteroids in the hemisphere and hemmorroids in the a$$ ? "
User avatar
nimby
Veteran Member
 
Posts: 2906
Joined: Thu May 08, 2008 3:35 pm
Location: Toronto, ON

Re: Don't ask, don't tell in the home

Postby madsglen » Sat Jan 07, 2012 10:46 pm

ProMale wrote:
nimby wrote: :shock: Holy sh*t!!! Man, are you for real? Obviously you have huge issues. How about NOT bringing your baggage to the table when offering advice to others. I hate to say this but I think it's guys like you who give gay men a bad rap. Grow up and maybe seek some councelling of your own.

Holy Hanna!


Gee, I must have touched a nerve. Too bad that hysterics is the only way you know to manage your fear that I could be right.

And by the way, I'm not gay. I'm homosexual. Oh, but I forgot: to you, that's just more proof that I have "baggage." :D


Yeah, I'd say a nerve was touched. And not in a good way. Please don't assume Nimby's response was 'hysterical' (and I won't go into that particular stereotype...) but more an honest personal reaction to your post. And maybe also reacting to what he may have perceived about how your post may affect Sean304's situation and feelings. Yes, Sean304 did ask for people's opinions with regard to his situation. Your opinions are your own and I suppose nobody can say they aren't valid. Having acknowledged that, however, I personally think making such broad assumptions about the situation and even making accusations about people we don't know crosses a line. I suppose I could take your post apart point by point to explain why I say that. Tempting (very tempting), but I won't because ultimately this is Sean304's post and his request for opinions, insights and suggestions which pertain to his situation. Not yours. So let's not hijack his post. (And by the way... there's whole other group of threads about 'gay' vs. 'homosexual' vs. 'queer' vs. what have you. If you have opinions about that and want to vent or unload, take it there.)
The cave you fear to enter holds the treasure you seek - Joseph Campbell
User avatar
madsglen
Member
 
Posts: 410
Joined: Sat Sep 10, 2005 1:40 am
Location: Seattle, WA

Re: Don't ask, don't tell in the home

Postby madsglen » Sat Jan 07, 2012 11:23 pm

And now for my real response to Sean304.

First, hang in there. You have had a lot happen to you (as has your family) over a relatively short time-span which will take time and effort to sort out. Being in recovery is big enough. Everyone is reacting to that as well. You feel as if your 'space was invaded' (and it was, although given the situation I wouldn't make the assumption that it was done with ill-intent) and the persona and walls you'd built came tumbling down in an instant. And they found out about some things that were possibly a surprise (or maybe even a shock) to them. Understandable reactions for all concerned. When stuff like this happens the silence all around could be understandable. Since I don't know you or your family I can't say if that silence is natural or if it's because nobody wants to deal with it. Could be because nobody knows how to start.

I don't know your family, but I would take them at your word when they say they want you to be happy. Honestly. Parents want that for their children, even if they don't always like what that means. Not mentioning anything they saw (or what you perceive they knew) could be their way of being supportive. Or maybe they just don't want to hurt you (or maybe themselves) by bringing it up. It will likely be up to you to break the silence and bring up the uncomfortable subjects in order for all of you to be able to ask and answer questions that are hanging out there. Remember that this was a big deal and change for them, too. It's probably not reasonable to expect that they'll react postitively to some subjects or issues. If you're uncomfortable, just imagine how they must feel. When you say you don't really have to come out to them now. Well, maybe you do because you really haven't. If only to be able to discuss it with them the way you want to. You never really had the chance. And neither have they.

Give all of you the benefit of the doubt and try to move past the "shame and secrets" phase. Maybe it will still be all that, but right now it's just silence. Other than the derogatory gay jokes (so not cool) you don't say how the room reacts. If you felt close to them (and they to you) then it's possible that's salvageable over time. They may feel a little less close now because they don't feel they know you as they did (which is true, they don't). And you have to either rebuild based on what you all know now or forge new relationships based on what you all learn about each other through this. Double lives have consequences for all involved.

Hang in there.
The cave you fear to enter holds the treasure you seek - Joseph Campbell
User avatar
madsglen
Member
 
Posts: 410
Joined: Sat Sep 10, 2005 1:40 am
Location: Seattle, WA

Re: Don't ask, don't tell in the home

Postby ProMale » Sat Jan 07, 2012 11:24 pm

madsglen wrote:So let's not hijack his post. (And by the way... there's whole other group of threads about 'gay' vs. 'homosexual' vs. 'queer' vs. what have you. If you have opinions about that and want to vent or unload, take it there.)


I'm afraid I have the right to correct anyone, in any post, when they call me gay. And if posting topically is "hijacking," then I encourage you to ignore my own threads when I start them. But more to the point: either do the work of picking apart my post to show why I am wrong, or kindly observe a proper silence.
Last edited by ProMale on Sun Jan 08, 2012 12:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
ProMale
Newbie
 
Posts: 21
Joined: Mon Jun 23, 2008 10:58 pm

Re: Don't ask, don't tell in the home

Postby nimby » Sat Jan 07, 2012 11:41 pm

ProMale wrote:And by the way, I'm not gay. I'm homosexual. Oh, but I forgot: to you, that just confirms that I've got "baggage." :D


No, man, you are gay, just not too happy about it. Pity. :(


Gay
   [gey] Show IPA adjective, -er, -est, noun, adverb

adjective

1. homosexual.

2. of, indicating, or supporting homosexual interests or issues: a gay organization.

3. having or showing a merry, lively mood: gay spirits; gay music.

4. bright or showy: gay colors; gay ornaments.

5. given to or abounding in social or other pleasures: a gay social season. Oh, no, you're gay. You just not too happy about it. Pity.
"Why do we have asteroids in the hemisphere and hemmorroids in the a$$ ? "
User avatar
nimby
Veteran Member
 
Posts: 2906
Joined: Thu May 08, 2008 3:35 pm
Location: Toronto, ON

Re: Don't ask, don't tell in the home

Postby olywaguy » Sat Jan 07, 2012 11:54 pm

First of all, welcome to the Board Sean. I hope you find this a good place for you to seek advice on the gay life. I came out to myself very late in life...just a little over 10 years ago. There are some things that I am still learning about the gay life and when I needed advice, I got some good ones from the Board.

You are right, the way you were outed by your family is uncommon to be sure...yet, it is something that has been on mind lately. I live alone and my family doesn't know that I am gay. One of my biggest fears is what would happen if I should be hospitalized for a long time or worse yet, should I die unexpectedly. Then, they would be the ones going through my things. The thought of that worries me especially now that I am in a new town where I don't know very many people.

The day after Thanksgiving, I had a minor procedure...a circumcision. When I was getting the paperwork done for my surgery one of the questions that the admission clerk asked me about was my living will. I never gave it much thought before but now it weighs heavy on my mind. I am not getting any younger (48 years old) and I need to start considering these things.

But, one thing I know that I don't have right now is a back-up...someone who would be an ally to me who would go to my place and get rid of everything gay in my life (I believe there is a de-gay your home thread around here somewhere). That is a worry that I have because I don't want to put my family in yet another torment besides my death.

However, since your family knows about your gender preference maybe it is time you talk about it to your family. You and your family can't be living like this with deep silences and not talk about the elephant in the room. I know you are scared but it may be necessary to muster the courage you need to talk to them about it. The biggest fear that parents have toward their gay children is the threat of HIV/AIDS. They don't want to see you suffer or die young. Give them assurances that you are being careful and that there is nothing to fear. But, foremost, get them talking...do it one by one so you don't feel ganged up on. We all need our families...we can't live a life without them and you shouldn't have to. It will take time, but they will come to understand. Be patient with them. No one is perfect and you shouldn't expect them to be.

You may also want to test the waters with some close friends and see how they take the news. Most young people your age don't care about that, you may even be surprised to hear "oh, I suspected as much" or "oh, yeah I know...duh." You will quickly find out who your friends really are and who are not. Anyone who loves you will stick with you.
Carlos

"I just want to suck his tongue out of his mouth !"--JPaul


http://www.askcarlos.com/
http://carlos-the-critic.blogspot.com/
User avatar
olywaguy
Moderator
 
Posts: 1672
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2004 1:08 pm
Location: Tupelo, Mississippi

Re: Don't ask, don't tell in the home

Postby ProMale » Sun Jan 08, 2012 12:00 am

Sean304,

I am stunned that someone in this thread has called me "malicious" for advising you as honestly as I did, and that another has said that I'm bringing my own issues to bear. I tried to write in response to the data you gave in your original post, which is why I went to the trouble of quoting you. It might be productive to ask a few hard questions.

You have said that both your family and their friends openly make derogatory remarks about homosexuals (gay-identified or not, I assume). In order for them to be honest when they claim they still love and respect you, they must do more than say they "just want you to be happy," must do more than continue to tolerate silently their friends' hateful remarks and make you feel like the air is now poisoned with "shame and secrets," and they must do more than change their behaviors and their mindsets. In particular, they must either confront those friends or distance themselves from them. They must, if necessary, switch to a different house of worship, if any. (And I might even add that they ought to take a hard look at themselves and understand that their homophobia is but a symptom of a larger, deeper unkindness, which probably manifests itself in other domains. Yes, here I'm making an assumption. Can you honestly tell me that I'm wrong?) If you think it is likely that your family will reconsider and rearrange their friendships and allegiances in order to show you what I consider to be a bare minimum of loyalty and respect, then you should definitely continue to invest in them, and you could be reasonably certain of a good outcome. For my part, I believe that, since their homophobia is deep, old, and shared across their community, it is socially and emotionally much cheaper for them to sacrifice your dignity, stick to their old ways, and continue to betray you with the subtle shaming and double-talk you described. In fact, I'd like to record that as a prediction, and I'd be interested to hear how things are going for you in five years.

The other point of concern is that you let yourself get "extremely close" to these unkind people, which is understandable because they're your family. But now that you're an adult, have you taken a moment to ask yourself what your closeness to them might say about you? Have you developed sound judgment when selecting whom you'll get close to today? Is there some unkind part of you that identifies with the family's aggression?

As for positive points, I see two. First, you are in psychotherapy, which means you are willing to reflect on your past and present experience and are striving to figure out what works for you. Second, the instinct that told you to hide your sexuality from your family has been proven right by the aftermath of your coma. Continue to follow that instinct. If it tells you to stay close to the family, do so; if it tells you otherwise, follow that; and if it tells you to dismiss me as crazy, then go ahead. But in this latter case I would add two more points. First, I have observed that homosexuals who are socially or psychologically "extremely close" to their homophobic families often complain heartbreakingly about feelings of worthlessness and self-hatred; for examples, just observe some of the people who post to this message board. Second, don't let anyone call you a liar for protecting yourself from people who spent your whole life telling you they loved you, but who then received your true self with "secrets and shame."
Last edited by ProMale on Sun Jan 08, 2012 8:13 am, edited 19 times in total.
ProMale
Newbie
 
Posts: 21
Joined: Mon Jun 23, 2008 10:58 pm

Re: Don't ask, don't tell in the home

Postby ProMale » Sun Jan 08, 2012 12:03 am

nimby wrote:
ProMale wrote:And by the way, I'm not gay. I'm homosexual. Oh, but I forgot: to you, that just confirms that I've got "baggage." :D


No, man, you are gay, just not too happy about it. Pity. :(


Gay
   [gey] Show IPA adjective, -er, -est, noun, adverb

adjective

1. homosexual.

2. of, indicating, or supporting homosexual interests or issues: a gay organization.

3. having or showing a merry, lively mood: gay spirits; gay music.

4. bright or showy: gay colors; gay ornaments.

5. given to or abounding in social or other pleasures: a gay social season. Oh, no, you're gay. You just not too happy about it. Pity.


Oh, that's brilliant. Cite a source created by heterosexist heterosexuals to tell me what I am. You're some kind of genius, buddy. :D
ProMale
Newbie
 
Posts: 21
Joined: Mon Jun 23, 2008 10:58 pm

Re: Don't ask, don't tell in the home

Postby nimby » Sun Jan 08, 2012 12:30 am

[quote="ProMale
Oh, that's brilliant. Cite a source created by heterosexist heterosexuals to tell me what I am. You're some kind of genius, buddy. :D[/quote]

Um, it's called a dictionary. Try it some time.
"Why do we have asteroids in the hemisphere and hemmorroids in the a$$ ? "
User avatar
nimby
Veteran Member
 
Posts: 2906
Joined: Thu May 08, 2008 3:35 pm
Location: Toronto, ON

Re: Don't ask, don't tell in the home

Postby ProMale » Sun Jan 08, 2012 12:38 am

nimby wrote:[quote="ProMale
Oh, that's brilliant. Cite a source created by heterosexist heterosexuals to tell me what I am. You're some kind of genius, buddy. :D


Um, it's called a dictionary. Try it some time.[/quote]

Yes, genius. Dictionaries are made by heterosexist heterosexuals. But I suppose I should "owe [sic] up to them," as you recommended to Sean304.

Good night. :D
ProMale
Newbie
 
Posts: 21
Joined: Mon Jun 23, 2008 10:58 pm

Re: Don't ask, don't tell in the home

Postby nimby » Sun Jan 08, 2012 1:58 am

Cheers! :D
"Why do we have asteroids in the hemisphere and hemmorroids in the a$$ ? "
User avatar
nimby
Veteran Member
 
Posts: 2906
Joined: Thu May 08, 2008 3:35 pm
Location: Toronto, ON

Re: Don't ask, don't tell in the home

Postby sean304 » Tue Jan 10, 2012 10:42 pm

Wow. And I was afraid this website would be quiet. I appreciate everyone who weighed in on my predicament. It is helpful to get different perspectives. Since I know the situation intimately, I can take what I need from the posts and leave the rest. Just to clarify, my parents have not said a bad word about homosexuals since this whole thing - my brothers and assorted cousins have - although there has been some snickering when a homophobic joke gets told on TV, etc. But the reality is that since I came out to myself, I am more aware of these things and might be a bit overly sensitive. Besides, my brothers - in their early 20s - were not made aware of my sexual status.
I did not react well when my walls crumbled and my secrets came tumbling out. It is very possible that my parents don't want to make me uncomfortable by bringing it up and may be waiting for me. A part of me doesn't want to do anything. They know and they know I know they know, you know? I'll be moving back to CA in a few months and the path of least resistance does seem less angsty.
I'm not really sure what I'm going to do. However, I do know it was good to talk about these issues with all of you. I'm not used to being honest about anything when it comes to this side of my life so I'm in new territory. So thank you again for all who gave me their take on things. Now let's everybody shake hands, behave and be friends. :)
sean304
 
Posts: 12
Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2011 10:37 pm


Return to Coming Out

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest