The pill!

Discussion on what it means to be straight acting, whether it's good, bad or indifferent.

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If u sould take a pill that could turn u a straight person..would u take it

Yes
5
15%
No
21
62%
I am not sure
8
24%
 
Total votes : 34

The pill!

Postby MattMurdock » Mon Mar 19, 2007 5:52 pm

Ok..i have a nice question that i ve been thinking for some days now...after i watched the X-men 3 movie! So here it goes:

"If u sould take a pill that could turn u a straight person..would u take it and continue with your life?"

I am not sure i can answer this question by myself...it is a bit confusing. Do u agree?
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Postby Rune » Mon Mar 19, 2007 6:49 pm

Hey bro, there's already a thread on this called something about a straight-fairy. Check it out :) It's just a few posts down in this same forum.
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Postby Davy » Wed Mar 21, 2007 2:09 pm

This thread might be a little more realistic. A straight fairy isn't going to show up, obviously. But if science can find the cause of homosexuality (as so many people are pushing for), then the other side of that coin is a "treatment". What if there was a hormone or some other treatment that could grow your hypothalamus to the size of a straight man? If there is a such thing as antidepressants to regulate your brain chemistry, what if there was a pill that could tweak your sexual response to the opposite sex?

Keep in mind that none of this is the same thing as ex-gay "ministries" that encourage you to bang bull dykes for Jesus and cure yourself of your sinful ways. What if there was a legitimate medical treatment that could alter your sexual orientation? Would you take it?

These are things to think about not only because you may or may not be happy with your orientation, but also because if we keep pushing science to find the cause of homosexuality, there are other ramifications to consider: abortions, genetic selection, and of course pills to make you straight.

But to answer the question: If I were not in a relationship with another man, I probably would take it.
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Postby h00kairz » Wed Mar 21, 2007 4:46 pm

Knowing what I know now, I absolutely would NOT take such a pill. The reasons why bear some examination.

It has taken me a long time to become relatively comfortable, and in fact somewhat proud, of my identity. My sexual identity is a very important part of that. Some people say that they are much more than their sexual orientations. And I would dispute that because sexual orientation plays a large role in your choice of life partner. Say it again: “LIFE partner.” My hubby of 16 years is very important to me, and despite all the difficulties being gay in today’s society presents, I wouldn’t do anything to jeopardize my relationship with him. I do have interests which are my own, but the majority of my life revolves around our relationship.

Now, if I consider the hypothetical case in which I have no life partner and am faced with social marginalization because of my sexual orientation, my first reaction may be to wish I wasn’t gay. But deeper consideration leads me to wonder who is to blame. Am I to blame for being gay? Am I to blame for begin stigmatized? No. Then who is to blame? The Christian right are to blame. They are the ones who can’t deal with anything which contradicts their dogma. They are the ones whose “teachings” and “preachings” have resulted in today’s social intolerance. So the real question is: why should I or anyone bow before this tyranny and do something as drastic as alter something as integral to his identity as his potential choice of life partner? The very idea smacks of fascism. It really is akin to the Nazi concept of an Aryan-race. The only difference here is that instead of prison-camps and gas-chambers, the Christian right use a much more subtle method of coercion: "family values." The message is: "If you don't suppress your nature, and subscribe to our arbitrary standard of acceptibility, we will deprive you of your basic human rights by poisoning your family against you, censure your choice of life-partner, ridicule you, marginalize you, persecute you, and deny you a place in Heaven."

Being gay has been difficult, but these difficulties are what have made me who I am today. It has made me compassionate to others in similar situations (gay or not). The fact that I have stood against waves of social disapproval and held fast to my own convictions make me proud.
To me this pill, or straight fairy, or whatever metaphor you choose, represents a very negative idea: that there is something wrong with being gay, that it is somehow inferior. Another way of looking at it is this: How do you think a Black man, a Chinese man, or a Jew would react if you asked them if they would want to take a White Anglo-Saxon Protestant pill?

It’s kind of like making a deal with the devil. Sure, it may make some of your problems go away, but what are you giving up in return? By taking the pill, you are acknowledging that being gay is somehow deficient. You are giving in to the very WRONG social pressure to conform to an arbitrary norm. I see it as tantamount to selling your soul.

The day that such a pill could be viewed as superficially as a change of clothes is the day I would accept it as a real choice. But the fact is, the development of any kind of “cure” for sexual orientation is always going to be charged with moral problems that revolve around personal liberty and human rights. Begin gay is NOT a disease. It cannot be compared to cancer or sickle-cell anemia or Huntington’s. The only disease associated with being gay is the intolerance perpetuated by the self-righteous Christian right.
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Postby Davy » Thu Mar 22, 2007 12:38 am

It's a tough question because it brings up some things most people don't want to talk about.

I would hope that science would not proceed any further with research into why gay people are gay and straight people are straight. As I said, while it answers questions that could be used to prove our case in the civil rights struggle, there is also a dark side to such findings that we may not want, such as a pill to cure gayness. I would hope that science would never develop such a thing in the first place. However, if I were not happily in a long-term relationship with another man, I would probably take the pill if it were offered.

Contradictory as it may sound, there are some things to consider.

Many of us have spent our entire adult lives struggling for equality and social tolerance. Someday, gay marriage will be legal and socially acceptable. Someday, no one will give it a second thought when Brian has two daddies or Heather has two mommies. The reality is that I will be too old to enjoy it when that day comes. Many of those who came from the Stonewall era won't even live to see that day. So it begs the question: Why spend your entire life fighting for something that you will not ever live to fully enjoy?

Imagine if you were born in the early 19th century as a slave and when you were 60, slavery was finally abolished and you were finally a free man. So you now get to enjoy 5, 10, maybe 15 years of freedom if you're lucky. That can't make up for the 60 years you spent in slavery. Even though you are now a free man, the dreams of a young man with his life ahead of him will forever be just that. I'm sure you'd wish there was a "White Pill" available when you were in your 20s or 30s.

Back to reality. I am hoping that my partner and I live a happy life together despite the social intolerance that exists. Under the current circumstances, I wouldn't have it any other way.
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Postby h00kairz » Thu Mar 22, 2007 2:47 am

Davy wrote:I would hope that science would not proceed any further with research into why gay people are gay and straight people are straight.

Well, I don't think I would go so far as to restrict the search for knowledge. But with it should come commensurate strides in philosophy at all levels of society.

Davy wrote:Why spend your entire life fighting for something that you will not ever live to fully enjoy?

With this attitude, mankind would still be living in caves. Is that what you want? It's all so easy for you to rest on the laurels of others. You like having electricity, indoor plumbing, hot and cold running water, entertainment piped directly into your livingroom, right? You enjoy your right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, right? Where do you think we'd all be now if our predecessors had said, "Why fight for these things when we won't live to enjoy it?"

I guess I can't expect everyone to be proactive. But I think I can expect everyone to at least not work against progress. And I really think that saying 'Yes' to a straight pill, whatever the qualification, is a defeatist mentality.

Imagine if you were born in the early 19th century as a slave and when you were 60, slavery was finally abolished and you were finally a free man. So you now get to enjoy 5, 10, maybe 15 years of freedom if you're lucky. That can't make up for the 60 years you spent in slavery. Even though you are now a free man, the dreams of a young man with his life ahead of him will forever be just that. I'm sure you'd wish there was a "White Pill" available when you were in your 20s or 30s.

I think I understand what you're saying here. In the eyes of the young, faced with the prospect of years of struggle, there might not be a point. But a more mature attitude, and a more positive attitude, would be to say, "Hey, 15, 10, or EVEN 5 years of freedom is better than none. And even if I never, ever see freedom, at least I held fast to my own human dignity. They may have broken my body, but they can never break my spirit."

Wishing there was a pill that could solve all your problems, and actually taking it if it were available are qualitatively different. Once presented with the reality of "the pill" we will face a moral dichotomy, kind of like the red and green pills in the Matrix. Do we take the pill so that we can be safe and comfortable, while deliberately denying that the pill is a direct affront to human rights? Or do we reject the pill, accepting that we will have to continue to fight and hold on to our convictions that we are NOT second-class, that we do not need, and should not be pressured, to change?

If we take the pill, or even admit that we would take it under certain circumstances, we are admitting defeat. We're conceding the religious right's claims that we are abominations against nature.

Now THAT, however sugar-coated, is a tough pill to swallow.
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Postby RedKen99 » Thu Mar 22, 2007 2:53 am

Sometimes I feel like yes, and sometimes no.
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Postby JakeMIke » Thu Mar 22, 2007 7:29 am

Thank God I'm gay!!
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Postby Donovan » Fri Mar 23, 2007 1:28 am

Will I wake up outside the Matrix and realize the world around me is worse after I take the pill and become straight??
The essence is not in the details, but in one's intentions. I may be a bit rough around the edges, but I have good intentions.
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Postby qwertz » Sat Mar 24, 2007 6:33 am

No no no no no no no no no no no
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Postby HaloGrinder » Sat Mar 24, 2007 8:53 am

If I were a straight man ...
I'd be in constant pursuit of boobs and pink tacos.
I'd spend lots of time sitting in a recliner.
I'd accidentally impregnate some lady more than once, so I'd have all these bratty kids running around my house.
My lady/wife would have maxed out my credit cards or accidentally wrecked my car more than once.
I'd be unhappy so I'd search the internet for a new lady, in an attempt to escape my kids and the old lady.
I'd end up meeting a somewhat over weight gal with low self esteem and no back bone that would fulfill each and everyone of my misogynistic desires until that got boring too...

Hell no, I do not want a pill to become THAT!
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Postby Screamer » Sat Mar 24, 2007 4:40 pm

What are the side effects? It might be funny if the straightening pill worked while ratcheting up the wrong sex hormones. So you could be a hetero guy, but more "fem" than ever. I don't think anyone knows how a pill could actually work (if at all, etc.)
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Postby Davy » Sat Mar 24, 2007 6:33 pm

HaloGrinder wrote:If I were a straight man ...


As a gay man...

I'm in constant pursuit (or at least admiration) of big dicks
I've spent plenty of time in clubs and and bars when sitting home watching TV might have been more entertaining.
No fear of pregnancy, but I've occasionally worried about STDs and whether the condom actually did its job with that trick the night before.
My man/husband might be financially irresponsible and find a way to make my life financial hell.
I might end up with some guy with low self-esteem who is a jealous stalker and reads my emails and checks the call log on my cell phone and threatens to commit suicide if I ever leave him.

I guess the point is that halogrinder's point is well taken. The grass isn't always greener on the other side. There is good and bad with each orientation.
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Postby Frizzurd » Sat Mar 24, 2007 9:39 pm

Im not even sure we are heading forward anymore. The apathy is so bad it seems like to even give a damn about our injustice just makes one a whiner in the eyes of other gays. Im only one man. Perhaps if there was a movement that was on the right track i would have some hope but as it is i would take the pill as soon as it was offered. Its not like I was going to find a guy for me anyways so any joy homosexuality brings is lost and its nothing but a nuisance, a disability.
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Postby Rune » Sun Mar 25, 2007 12:21 am

You can't blame people for not being interested in whatever fights you are interested in Frizzurd. Some people just don't give a sh*t about the rights fight. Personally, although I'd like gays to have more rights than they do now, I have other things to do that are more important, and I don't even have time to care or worry about that sort of thing. In a perfect world where I had infinite time on my hands sure, I'd be an avid gay rights advocate and do the whole organization thing, but that is simply not the case.

"Oh but what could be more important than... " I'm sure that's the common reply that I usually hear. But that still doesn't change the fact that for me, there are surely more important things that take up most of my energy on a daily basis to where I am content being mostly apathetic about the status of gay rights. It makes me somewhat happy when we win one, and somewhat pissed when we lose one, but that's about it. The farthest I'll likely go is to argue for them if I'm ever in such a conversation / situation.

And I know I'll sound cheesy when I say this, but everyone is "only one man" so if you think there's no organization why don't you do something about it? As far as no progress being made, I wouldn't say that. There are states with civil unions and such nowadays which did not exist at all in the past. I think the gay community sucks at representing itself though. Whoever came up with the "gay pride" idea should be shot, and whoever interpreted it as meaning shoving risque bullcrap into people's faces should be doubly shot. Gay pride parades need to stop looking like traveling circuses and more like actual civil rights parades. Of course, I blame a lot of this on the flamboyance of many gays, which is one of the reasons I have trouble standing the overly flaming. If these people would only exercise a modicum of self control in these things instead of being so in-your-face about stuff, I think things might go a lot better. Nothing alienates people who are sitting on the fence quicker than showing them just how far away you happen to be from that fence.

With that said, I think the exposure generated by gay related things, regardless of whether we are currently winning or losing, is winning us future support in the comming generation. The more exposed you are to something the less apprehensive you are about it. These trends do tend to show up , with younger generations being much more in favor of gay marriage than older ones. If these trends continue I'm sure in a few decades there won't be a gay rights issue any more.
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Postby qwertz » Sun Mar 25, 2007 5:12 am

When you are religious, it would be plain blasphemy to take the pill as you would affect the supreme gift of god to you: the ability to love.
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Postby SigEpLaxer » Sun Mar 25, 2007 9:41 am

Hmm...interesting question. I'd be inclined to say yes, but that's because of the situation I'm currently in with my relationship. I think overall, the answer would be no. I've had some issues behind being gay, but in general, things are pretty decent. If I can just stop picking the wrong guy, things would be great.
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Postby Frizzurd » Sun Mar 25, 2007 10:50 am

Do something about it? um okay i already went to the only group i know of in my town and pretty much told them the same thing your saying about how the pride parades are a joke and should be a civil rights march rather than a sexual display. Some asshole talked over me and everyone gave me ugly looks. Which is pretty hypocritical when the fact comes that they themselves are outsiders and they are dissing on someone who doesnt fit in the group. I have aspergers syndrome which disables a lot of my ability to be social with people. So its not realistic to think i could be a leader and thats really what it takes to get something done is to have a charismatic presence to get numbers to join you.
I envy that you can have such a carefree attitude and not get upset everytime you are labeled, denied the same freedoms as everyone else and most of all denied dignity. Surei can understand the haters being allowed freedom of speach but where thehell is ours. We dont get the same opportunities of equal representation but its plenty okay to shovel sh*t on us. Then again all the gay pride crud fuels what is already so strong. So, yeah while i feel hopeless ill always be a thorn in the side of my enemies and i will damn well blame those who let the biggots push them over like little bitches.
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Postby Davy » Sun Mar 25, 2007 12:45 pm

Well said, frizzurd.

The #1 problem with the gay "movement" is the fact that the people and activities that the outside world despises about us are the very things we hold up to represent us at such events as Gay Pride.

Overtly sexual organizations (such as leather daddies, bondage/S&M clubs, etc) march in the parade right along with PFLAG and MCC. In some cities, even NAMBLA is allowed to march. When the media covers the parade, who do you think gets shown on the 6:00 News?
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Postby Rune » Sun Mar 25, 2007 1:32 pm

Charisma is only needed by the front-man, not the brains behind the scenes :) I don't think the right approach is to go and try to change their mind about how these parades are done. Instead, you might want to try finding others who are already similar to you and making an organization with them. Then you can try to spread your message and get more people to join you, and at the same time make it clear that there are a large number of gays like you (clearly there are) who are against this whole sexual display parading circus bullshit. But of course things like this take devoting your entire life to. If you want to make a real difference you have to remember that for you, this can't be a once a month type of thing. If you are really serious about doing something of this sort you shouldn't give excuses about WHY it is difficult (asperger's, lack of interest by many of the established organizations, etc.) Of COURSE we know it is difficult, which is why it isn't happening. If you are really serious you need to be doing all you can to get this to happen instead of pointing fingers at others for not trying themselves (no offence but that's how I see it). As far as I'm concerned though, it's not that I don't care, but I won't devote my life to it right now. I have other plans and aspirations and I can work around most of the rights withheld from me in practice. What the fu** do I care if someone thinks I'm lesser than them for being gay? Sure, they control me, but that degree of control is very small right now and they're losing even that as time goes. The fact that there are laws against gay rights only tells me that there are more people against me than for me and nothing more, but since I don't give a sh*t about who is against me and who is for me, and I only care about what rights I have, I'm not going to get all bent out of shape about the principle of the matter and be angry and depressed. This is not productive. Besides, even after we get gay marriage and such, there will still be a lot of people against gays, the only difference will be that they will have lost that control over me. And just like now, I'll continue to not care that they exist. These people can't deny me dignity as you seem to claim because I will not let the fact that I'm gay dictate the rest of my life's focus. I will try to achieve all my plans and dreams, including finding a good long-term relationship, and nothing they do can stop that. They don't have that kind of control over me. I intend to live a fuller life than most of them could even imagine, and if I succeed in that, what insignificant effect could they possibly hope to have on me? You have to pick and choose what you want to focus on man, you can't do it all, but just because you don't do it all doesn't mean you can't be bothered.

If such an organization as I described popped up I would probably help them in whatever small amount I could, but there is no damned way that I have the time to start or run such a thing. And there is NO damned way I would ever put my efforts toward promoting the current gay image that has taken the lead in the current movement. To me, that image is borderline repulsive.

There are organizations such as maybe GayOutdoors (or something like that), Regularguys.org and others which I bet have a lot of people who agree with you and some would probably help. Maybe if you are serious about them you should seek them out and see if any would be interested in the type of thing you are. Maybe someone charismatic with a lot of time on their hands will be found and he can be a fornt-man. I don't have answers for you really, but you're definatly not at the "this is hopeless" stage as seem to think. There's definatly much more you could do if you wanted to. The question to ask yourself though is, do you really want to? For me, the answer is no.
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Postby Frizzurd » Tue Mar 27, 2007 3:20 pm

Well thanks for explaining that. You do care. There are some people who not only dont care but also with internalized homophobia go out of the way to become part of the problem. Yeah i wouldnt want to make this my career as much as someone would not want to be a Doctor or Shoemaker as I am not cut out for it. I would like to find some people though, with similar ideas in my area and do something in my free time to counter the "Stonewall Coalition" group at the local university. Yeah I put theyre name in quotations because they got some nerve using that name when most of what they do is chalk little messages on the sidewalk and have parties lol.
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Postby Rune » Tue Mar 27, 2007 3:44 pm

Hehe I understand where you're comming from since we agree on how we see the gay community in general, however I think we have different definitions of caring. If by caring you mean that I want gays to have both a better image and equal rights etc etc, then yes, I care. But if by caring you mean that I'm willing to do something significant about it (this is how I see caring), then the answer is no, at least not at this point. Maybe later after I've completed some of my more important life goals :D But I don't think I've met any gays yet who don't want equal rights.
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Postby Ben » Mon Apr 02, 2007 7:15 am

Only if my BF took a pill too. :wink:
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Postby J » Mon Apr 02, 2007 11:31 pm

How about a "non-sexual" pill? You know, one that takes away all sex drive?
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Postby charmcitywop » Tue Apr 03, 2007 2:18 pm

J wrote:How about a "non-sexual" pill? You know, one that takes away all sex drive?


Yes. It's called marriage.
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