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Do you think Gender (i.e. is masculinity and/or femininity) is biological?

There are only two sexes. Gender is purely a social construction.
4
25%
Both masculinity and femininity are basically natural traits
12
75%
 
Total votes : 16

Site on masculine gendered men

Postby masculinity » Tue Sep 12, 2006 12:59 am

Please visit the following site and give your feedback:

http://youth-masculinity.blogspot.com/
Gays are a different species altogether from men (and women). They're not "men who like men," they are "third gender who like men."

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Postby devilnuts » Tue Sep 12, 2006 1:09 am

Your poll needs to be better defined.

Sex is biological and based on your genetic make up...whether that be XX, XY, or some other combination.
Gender is socially defined and constructed.
Masculinity and femininity are further social interpretations of gender.

Although both are defined by society, gender and masculinity/femininity do not always coincide with one another.

I'm just not quite sure what it is that you are asking.
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Postby edu999 » Tue Sep 12, 2006 1:18 am

I agree with dnuts... I think the question is poorly worded. Masculinity and femininity are not what define one's gender. One can be a masculine woman (see Janet Reno) or a feminine man (see Michael Jackson).

In my mind, we need to separate these things:

Sex/gender identity: whether you're a man or a woman, regardless of whether your physical self agrees with how your mind perceives yourself.

Sexual orientation: are you attracted to the same sex or the opposite sex? Or both?

Masculinity/femininity: this is purely behavioral and has nothing to do with your gender OR yourr sexual orientation. Anybody, man, woman, transgendered, gay, straight, or bi can be either masculine or feminine.
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In my experience this confusion is due to cultural reasons

Postby masculinity » Tue Sep 12, 2006 9:10 am

You are confusing sex with gender.

Sex is defined by our outer sex -- that is whether we are born with a vagina or penis (or both/ none).

Gender refers to our inner sex that is whether we sense our selves as Male or female. When we sense ourselves as male (irrespective of whether we are male or female) it is called masculinity and when we sense ourselves as female (again irrespective of we are male/female) it is called femininity.

However, the western society does not recognise Gender (i.e. inner sex) as being natural/ biological. It has to do with its Christian background. This leads to a lot of confusion.

1. For one thing gender and sex is confused as being one.

2. Men are believed to be only masculine and woman only feminine. The other combination is seen as abnormality caused by environmental factors.

3. However Gender manages to play an important role in the society without being seen. Its effects are wrongly attributed to other factors --- e.g. sexual orientation --- which is a rather weak phenomenon.

4. To add to the confusion Gender is characterised as being purely a matter of social construction by schools such as feminism.

To be sure, the society has its own brand of Gender, but it doesn't mean that a natural Gender does not exist.

Am I making myself clear.
Gays are a different species altogether from men (and women). They're not "men who like men," they are "third gender who like men."

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Re: Site on masculine gendered men

Postby qwertz » Tue Sep 12, 2006 1:28 pm

masculinity wrote:Please visit the following site and give your feedback:

http://youth-masculinity.blogspot.com/


I agree with the blog men are socially extremely oppressed. It is very well visible in suicide figures of young gay males. See:

http://www.youth-suicide.com/gay-bisexual/

The oppression is actually extreme, oozing from all holes from which it can ooze. For me being a man is being perfectly happy to have a penis and balls (and also with all behaviour coming with it), but nothing else (if you are not happy with them, there is surgery). All the rest is utter nonsense.
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Postby Lesley R. Charles » Tue Sep 12, 2006 1:48 pm

I too, agree with the blog. I know only too well being transgendered.
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Re: Site on masculine gendered men

Postby masculinity » Tue Sep 12, 2006 2:55 pm

It seems I have made a mistake by mixing two issues. The first is the blog site which is a different issue, and the second is the poll --- one of 'gender orientation', which I initiated in order to explore the concept of straight acting as I see it, as a researcher.

qwertz wrote:The oppression is actually extreme, oozing from all holes from which it can ooze.

You are right, men are extremely oppressed. But it is hardly ever recognised. Also, why aren't we doing something about it. Women have fought for their rights (and more!) so well.


qwertz wrote:For me being a man is being perfectly happy to have a penis and balls (and also with all behaviour coming with it), but nothing else (if you are not happy with them, there is surgery). All the rest is utter nonsense.

O.K., this is the other issue. That of Gender.

Now, why would a male not be happy with one's penis and balls. Unless and until he is a male with extreme feminine gender. (gender both masculine and feminine come in various degrees). What I'm trying to say is that this feminine gender is perfectly natural. As is the masculine gender. Although both are often sought to be highlighted to the extreme through artificial social symbols.
Gays are a different species altogether from men (and women). They're not "men who like men," they are "third gender who like men."

http://youth-masculinity.blogspot.com
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Postby masculinity » Tue Sep 12, 2006 3:03 pm

Lesley R. Charles wrote:I too, agree with the blog. I know only too well being transgendered.

Thank you.
.
My contention is that people are born with innate masculinity and/ or femininity, and thus it is a perfectly natural thing. Most ancient societies gave feminine gendered males and masculine gendered females a due place in society --- as a separate gender from men and women.

In places like India, such gender (usually called the third gender) still exist (e.g. the Hijra). However, they are not as privileged as in ancient societies.

I don't intend to undervalue your experiences of being oppressed. But let me add that masculine gendered men are no less oppressed. In fact their plight may be aggravated by the fact that they don't have a social space or voice to express what they go through. The root of everyone's oppression is the same. That is what the blog is trying to get at.
Gays are a different species altogether from men (and women). They're not "men who like men," they are "third gender who like men."

http://youth-masculinity.blogspot.com
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Postby Lesley R. Charles » Tue Sep 12, 2006 3:15 pm

Yes, I agree that both gendered males are oppressed. I think that ancient civilizations realized that gender is not black or white but 256 shades of gray. I applaud you for making this thought provoking thread. I really don't view myself as oppressed, but I guess I was by being forced to try to be masculine instead of feminine which I am.
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Re: Site on masculine gendered men

Postby qwertz » Tue Sep 12, 2006 3:51 pm

masculinity wrote:It seems I have made a mistake by mixing two issues. The first is the blog site which is a different issue, and the second is the poll --- one of 'gender orientation', which I initiated in order to explore the concept of straight acting as I see it, as a researcher.

qwertz wrote:The oppression is actually extreme, oozing from all holes from which it can ooze.

You are right, men are extremely oppressed. But it is hardly ever recognised. Also, why aren't we doing something about it. Women have fought for their rights (and more!) so well.


qwertz wrote:For me being a man is being perfectly happy to have a penis and balls (and also with all behaviour coming with it), but nothing else (if you are not happy with them, there is surgery). All the rest is utter nonsense.

O.K., this is the other issue. That of Gender.

Now, why would a male not be happy with one's penis and balls. Unless and until he is a male with extreme feminine gender. (gender both masculine and feminine come in various degrees). What I'm trying to say is that this feminine gender is perfectly natural. As is the masculine gender. Although both are often sought to be highlighted to the extreme through artificial social symbols.




Guys may act as fem as they want (that is one aspect of the liberation of men). As long as they are happy to have cock and balls, they are plainly man. Period. If you are fem and not happy to have cock and balls, you are not a man. Period. See Lesley. She is perfectly right. In the right place, in the right body.
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Re: Site on masculine gendered men

Postby masculinity » Wed Sep 13, 2006 3:53 am

qwertz wrote:Guys may act as fem as they want (that is one aspect of the liberation of men). As long as they are happy to have cock and balls, they are plainly man. Period. If you are fem and not happy to have cock and balls, you are not a man. Period. See Lesley. She is perfectly right. In the right place, in the right body.

In my analysis, unless the society accomodates social spaces only for one male gender --- masculine male, no male however feminine he may naturally feel would like to change his sex.
In ancient societies which acknowledged more than one male genders, there was no concept of transexualism, only transgenderism. Transexualism happens when femininity in males is extremely suppressed, so much so that the feminine gendered male begins to see his body as a jail.
Gays are a different species altogether from men (and women). They're not "men who like men," they are "third gender who like men."

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Postby Lesley R. Charles » Wed Sep 13, 2006 8:10 am

Masculinity, you are right that the transsexual does view their body as a prison. I too sometimes feel that way, but a part of me does not want to surgically alter my body. It is true that femininity in men in our society is frowned upon, I know only too well about that. Yet, I have always striven to be me and show my femininity, even though I had masculinity nearly shoved down my throat. I am not writing this for pity but just to prove your point.
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Re: In my experience this confusion is due to cultural reaso

Postby devilnuts » Wed Sep 13, 2006 1:47 pm

masculinity wrote:You are confusing sex with gender.

Sex is defined by our outer sex -- that is whether we are born with a vagina or penis (or both/ none).


Go back and reread what I wrote. And reread what edu wrote. And then explain to me, how either one of us confused sex with gender. My question was about your poll and what exactly you are trying to ask because it appears you are confusing gender identity with masculinity/femininity. Which you still haven't answered what exactly it is you are getting at.
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Postby masculinity » Wed Sep 13, 2006 3:42 pm

Lesley R. Charles wrote:Masculinity, you are right that the transsexual does view their body as a prison. I too sometimes feel that way, but a part of me does not want to surgically alter my body. It is true that femininity in men in our society is frowned upon, I know only too well about that. Yet, I have always striven to be me and show my femininity, even though I had masculinity nearly shoved down my throat. I am not writing this for pity but just to prove your point.

you're right. And yet, nature did not intend this incongruity to happen. If the society had given space to the femininity within you, without forcing you to be called a 'man' and letting you be a gender that you are a male 'outer-sex' with a female 'inner-sex' there would be no need to get a 'female' body to match the female within.

In nature everyone has an important role. Our societies (especially the western societies) have wiped out important aspects of human nature and have allowed only a selected pick to grow more than its natural. Of course humans pay a terrible price in the end.

Also, things can be even more difficult if your a feminine gendered male and have an exclusive sexual need for women. At least homosexual men have a space for their own where they can be 'feminine'. Heterosexual males don't have that social space.
Gays are a different species altogether from men (and women). They're not "men who like men," they are "third gender who like men."

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Postby Lesley R. Charles » Wed Sep 13, 2006 4:16 pm

Sometimes, I think some of the indigenious tribes had it right and not force gender roles on people. But unfortunately, I was not raised in that social construct, and now must find my way to express who I am and live the way I want. But maybe if I was free to express myself, I would not want to alter my body, yet live in the gender role that is suitable for me.
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Postby Frizzurd » Wed Sep 13, 2006 7:46 pm

Yeah isnt there a native american tribe that had individuals they would call "of two spirits". Mmmmm native american ladyboys
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Postby Lesley R. Charles » Wed Sep 13, 2006 7:48 pm

Yes there were quite a few tribes that honored two spirit people.
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Postby masculinity » Thu Sep 14, 2006 3:17 am

Lesley R. Charles wrote:Sometimes, I think some of the indigenious tribes had it right and not force gender roles on people. But unfortunately, I was not raised in that social construct, and now must find my way to express who I am and live the way I want. But maybe if I was free to express myself, I would not want to alter my body, yet live in the gender role that is suitable for me.

There is no more social role left for feminine gendered men (whether they like men or women) and masculine gendered men who exclusively like men. They are made redundant by post Christian societies.

What we need is a movement to restore the natural order --- where all shades of human nature are not only accepted but given their due and valued social role. One important role played by the feminine gendered males had been to serve as important links between men and women who otherwise lived in almost separate social spaces. Gradual Heterosexualisation of society has made that role redundant.
Gays are a different species altogether from men (and women). They're not "men who like men," they are "third gender who like men."

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Re: In my experience this confusion is due to cultural reaso

Postby masculinity » Sat Sep 16, 2006 1:30 am

devilnuts wrote:
masculinity wrote:You are confusing sex with gender.

Sex is defined by our outer sex -- that is whether we are born with a vagina or penis (or both/ none).


Go back and reread what I wrote. And reread what edu wrote. And then explain to me, how either one of us confused sex with gender. My question was about your poll and what exactly you are trying to ask because it appears you are confusing gender identity with masculinity/femininity. Which you still haven't answered what exactly it is you are getting at.

Sorry, I missed your important post.

Confusions there are a plenty. But I hope you will stick around to clear it for both of us.

You and edu999 are saying that:

1. Sex identity and gender identity is one and the same thing.

"edu999 says it more clearly:
Sex/gender identity: whether you're a man or a woman, regardless of whether your physical self agrees with how your mind perceives yourself."

2. Masculinity, femininity is not gender.

Understanding what is wrong with the above analysis is the key to understand Man's oppression in the west.[/quote]
Gays are a different species altogether from men (and women). They're not "men who like men," they are "third gender who like men."

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Postby masculinity » Sat Sep 16, 2006 2:32 am

Frizzurd wrote:Yeah isnt there a native american tribe that had individuals they would call "of two spirits". Mmmmm native american ladyboys

The thing to understand is that 'natural masculinity' is not fearful or hateful of femininity.

This hatred and fear is created as part of a deep conspiracy. Something the blog in question talks about.

This fear is also a result of mixing of the two genders (i.e. masculine and feminine) into a supposedly homogenous social group. This breeds confusion, a lot of it.
Gays are a different species altogether from men (and women). They're not "men who like men," they are "third gender who like men."

http://youth-masculinity.blogspot.com
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Postby GX » Sat Sep 16, 2006 9:04 pm

Men will always be expected to act a certain way and so will women. That's how it has always been and most likely how it will always be. Women are given more equality now and placed less in a servient to male role though(in some ancient societies they were equal as well).
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Postby masculinity » Sun Sep 17, 2006 1:26 am

GX wrote:Men will always be expected to act a certain way and so will women. That's how it has always been and most likely how it will always be. Women are given more equality now and placed less in a servient to male role though(in some ancient societies they were equal as well).

You are right. There will always be social roles attached with any social group.

But the root of the oppression is when the grouping of people (i.e. their classification) is based not on natural considerations but as a result of a deep conspiracy.

Also, these social roles should be as close to the natural tendencies of people as possible. Today's roles of men have often become opposite to what their natural inclinations are.

And this causes problems. loads of it. Which becomes more severe if there is no social voice to this problem.

As regards women, I don't think equality between men and women is a reasonable goal. But the kind of equality being practised in modern societies is downright oppressive of men. Starting with the heterosexualisation of men's spaces.
Gays are a different species altogether from men (and women). They're not "men who like men," they are "third gender who like men."

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Postby masculinity » Sun Sep 17, 2006 1:38 am

GX wrote:Men will always be expected to act a certain way and so will women. That's how it has always been and most likely how it will always be. Women are given more equality now and placed less in a servient to male role though(in some ancient societies they were equal as well).

But what men in the west must understand is that masculinity and femininity are not just social constructs. That is, being masculine or feminine is not, in essence, a matter of conforming to certain roles or rebelling against them.

Masculinity and femininity are natural phenomenons, that happen naturally within us. The means of man's oppression is to deny this natural manhood unless they conform to some arbitrary roles of social manhood.

To take an example a naturally feminine gendered male may date all the girls in the town, or do the other roles expected of men, but his natural femininity will always reflect in everything he does.

Likewise, a naturally masculine gendered man wear all the lipsticks he wants and still be essentially masculine. Rather he can make 'wearning lipsticks' look macho.

This is not to say that masculinity is better than femininity, but that they are distinct natures not just social constructs.

Thus so far men have been trying to be 'men' by bending over backwards to fit into social masculinity roles.......trying to find it outside of them. Hoping to 'earn' it from the society, when it actually lies within them, naturally.

Unless men realise that their masculinity is rooted in nature, they will never realise that they are being oppressed.

The oppression of men is not that they are not allowed to do feminine things. In fact feminine gendered males do have their own space, albeit limited in the homosexual circles.

The oppression of men is there because things that are integral part of his natural masculinity are adjudged 'unmanly' or even 'feminine' thus forcing him to disown them/ suppress them.
Gays are a different species altogether from men (and women). They're not "men who like men," they are "third gender who like men."

http://youth-masculinity.blogspot.com
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Postby qwertz » Mon Sep 18, 2006 4:40 pm

I agree masculinity and feminity fundamentally and essentially differ. But society has linked unnatural consequences to masculinity. See among others divorce proceedings. Masculinity can NOT and may NOT be in accordance with the definition of Rudyard Kipling in "If..." (1). That is a merely artificial and socially constructed masculinity. Masculinity is also about NOT being strong and about being fem and having plainly carte blanche to be fem. Guys who are never afraid, don't desserve any respect.

(1) http://www.swarthmore.edu/~apreset1/docs/if.html
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Postby RedKen99 » Fri Sep 22, 2006 11:52 pm

You can't know fear, if you haven't experienced it! What I like is the commercials where superficial fem women are parading their beauty on t.v. Of course they are not like that, but what kind of life is there if all a woman does is apply their make-up and wear dresses?

Where's the femenist in that, or reality?

It's the same thing with men. Gillette is a great shaving brand, but they try to make it to look techy on their commercials. Almost like they are selling cars. Then at the end they show this lady comes out looking happy at the man who shaved.

I hate these superficial gender commercials.

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