Male-Male sexuality and desire universal, not 'gay'?

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Male-Male sexuality and desire universal, not 'gay'?

Postby Tom » Sun Apr 15, 2012 1:51 am

Hello everyone. I have come across a few sites whose links I am providing below, which prove explicitly and clearly that male-male sexuality is not something limited to a minority of the male population. Infact, in societies that have permitted free sexuality among men, it is been universal and not confined to a minority. Straight men ('straight' meaning males with manhood and not necessarily 'heterosexual') are all universally attracted to men with or without any attraction to women.

http://men-masculinity.newsvine.com/
http://youth-masculinity.blogspot.in/
http://sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=51986
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Re: Male-Male sexuality and desire universal, not 'gay'?

Postby nimby » Wed Apr 18, 2012 10:21 pm

Wow. Just Wow. Thanks Tom. These are incredible articles.
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Re: Male-Male sexuality and desire universal, not 'gay'?

Postby mijopaalmc » Thu Apr 19, 2012 5:54 pm

Tom wrote:Hello everyone. I have come across a few sites whose links I am providing below, which prove explicitly and clearly that male-male sexuality is not something limited to a minority of the male population. Infact, in societies that have permitted free sexuality among men, it is been universal and not confined to a minority. Straight men ('straight' meaning males with manhood and not necessarily 'heterosexual') are all universally attracted to men with or without any attraction to women.

http://men-masculinity.newsvine.com/
http://youth-masculinity.blogspot.in/
http://sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=51986


I think that most of us are well aware of the sentiments expressed in these posts. The second link is two a blog by a former poster here who called himself masculinity.

His ideas are deeply problematic because they ignore the differences in the construction of gender and sexuality across cultures. Moreover, as I recall, his main premises were also profoundly misogynistic.
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Re: Male-Male sexuality and desire universal, not 'gay'?

Postby catapult » Wed Apr 25, 2012 12:11 pm

This viewpoint is that being "gay" is a gender and characteristic thing and that being homosexual is a sexual preference thing.

The theory is that there is a third or fourth gender ("gay"), that masculine, homosexual men and feminine homosexual women do not or should not belong to.

According to this viewpoint, there are:
Men (including masculine homosexual men)
Women (including feminine homosexual women)
Gays? (Effeminate Men, including effeminate straight men)
Dykes? (Masculine Women, including masculine straight women)

And there are:
Heterosexuals (including some effeminate straight men and masculine straight women)
Homosexuals (including masculine homosexual men and feminine homosexual women)
Bisexuals

I am not necessarily subscribing to this theory, but given that there is still so much unknown and unproven about homosexuality and its causes and indicators, I don't think you can burn the guy at the stake for just speculating. There is a lot that is just speculating at this point.

It may indeed one day be proven that there is a distinct difference between masculine and effeminate homosexual men, beyond the surface level differences.

However, there should not be any backlash or bad feelings towards effeminate men or masculine women by Heterosexuals or Homosexuals.
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Re: Male-Male sexuality and desire universal, not 'gay'?

Postby furface » Wed Apr 25, 2012 1:07 pm

Masculinity was not speculating. His position as axiomatic, an obvious given. He was pushing, IMHO, that those who didn't conform to, or accept, HIS definition of sex/gender were ignorant of the way of the world and lesser; not to be valued or respected. His opinion and perception do not reality make.

catapult wrote:However, there should not be any backlash or bad feelings towards effeminate men or masculine women by Heterosexuals or Homosexuals.

WORD!!!
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Re: Male-Male sexuality and desire universal, not 'gay'?

Postby Odeh » Sat May 05, 2012 6:33 pm

I would not go so far as to say male-male sexuality is universal...but i suspect it is more common than people in this culture want to admit..I agree with Kinsey...I think human sexuality
all over the world in nature..is same-sex..opposite sex and both sexes...NOW how cultures evolve and handle these issues vary...the outlet in "pagan" cultures for fem men is a
separate social group..."two-spirit" people in Native American cultures..

I think the Western Culture is binary based.. either/or male-female.."gay"/ "straight ...so the way this sexual nature is expressed in the West is the creation of the "gay" sub-culture
fem men and men who like men to what ever percentage are pushed into this sub culture..notice they always say GLBT?...it is a default catch all that assumes one is 100% this or 100%
that..
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Re: Male-Male sexuality and desire universal, not 'gay'?

Postby John Sampras » Wed Jun 06, 2012 2:13 pm

I had a talk with this man over in newsvine for nearly a couple of years. I go by the name "Bulan" there. You can enjoy reading the fascinating discussions I had with this man over here. It is lengthy and tedious at times but I never lost patience. You may say, I wanted to know as much as possible,to be 100% sure that he is certain of whatever he is saying.
To do that I played tricks with him.
I attempted to cut him off, give him strong counter-arguments through different fake profiles and even challenged him point-black to meet me at the nearest police station.
The way he was confident about everything says that he is near about right in the fact that MEN UNIVERSALLY LIKE MEN.
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Re: Male-Male sexuality and desire universal, not 'gay'?

Postby qwertz » Sat Jun 23, 2012 8:44 am

I consider M2M sexual desire as perfectly universal and normal.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexual ... in_animals

I even wonder why men don't use heterosexualty only for utilitarian breeding and homosexuality in all other cases like some species in the animal kingdom. That would make things quite easier and more sensitive as guys can tune in into each other no problem, while male and female tuning in into each other is quite a problem. Guys know better what a guy sexually needs. Women will never have a clue.
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Re: Male-Male sexuality and desire universal, not 'gay'?

Postby Ben » Fri Jan 11, 2013 1:07 am

I think this is just a matter of semantics.

Being "gay" is a term I don't care for because I take it somewhat literally - a guy who walks around with a stupid grin on his face dancing and singing Disney showtunes.
I'm not like that. I am simply a man, who is sexually aroused by other men. I don't like pussy, I like cock, and I wanna be with like-minded men.

I've found that the term "androsexual" to the the best. It simply states that you are sexually attracted to male anatomy, while saying nothing about your sex, mental gender, or your demeanor.
There is also the term "andro-emotional" which means that you're also drawn emotionally towards masculinity and a masculine mind. This one is somewhat looser and a but fuzzy.

Unfortunately, very few people know what this means, and when I tell them I'm androsexual, they just look at me funny. That's when I simply say "Look, I'm homo".



As for the universal-ness of M2M sex, I'm pretty sure that if 1/10 is 100% homo, and 1/10 are 100% hetero. The rest of the 8/10 are in fact bisexual, leading socially constructed heterosexual lives.
It's commonplace that young boys masturbate together, and each other. It's even common that they suck each other. I believe most kids are a clean slate, sexually. Then as they grow up, the gradually conform to the social norm.
Nowdays we're seeing an emergence of more and more people who bend the labels, if not breaking them altogether. I know this from reading 100s of internet posts from men who identify themselves as 100% heterosexual yet they also like to suck cock (!) ... That's like 1+1=3. It's simply not true. The label "heterosexual" means that you're exclusively interested in the opposite sex.

What I think is going on, is that there is great confusion all around these days. Everybody's image of a homo is that he is an effeminate, lisping sissyboy. Bisexuals are generally seen as sexually confused or as sexual deviants, so they don't get much respect either from the str8 community nor the gay community for that matter. Since any label other than heterosexual also have additional implications of demeanor, the so called hetero men who are traditionally masculine suddenly don't know what to call themselves, so they stick with "str8 guy who likes to suck cock" rather than just calling themselves "bi" or "closeted homo".

The Ancient Greeks had a society where men had sex with men for fun, and had sex with women in order to build a family. We know that men fell in love with women, yet they also had sex with other men. Conversely, we also know that men fell in love with other men, yet they took a wife to bear their children. This was normal in their society.

Deep down, I don't think we're any different from the Ancient Greek - only our society is.
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Re: Male-Male sexuality and desire universal, not 'gay'?

Postby Lesley R. Charles » Fri Jan 11, 2013 6:45 pm

Ben, you have raised some great points. I do think using gay is not accurate and androsexual does make more sense. As you have stated unfortunately most gay men are perceived by society as being effeminate which may be true some of the time but I think there are all different gender identities in gay men and they have a right to be who they are whether masculine or feminine. Ben I have always seen you in my mind as a normal man who is attracted to other men.
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Re: Male-Male sexuality and desire universal, not 'gay'?

Postby glas_scot » Mon Jan 14, 2013 4:46 am

I think labels are far too powerful and 'compulsary' in today's society. Everyone has to 'have' one. For example a friend starts talking about someone they work with...'there's this new girl, she's a dumb blond/slut/bitch/'insert title here'. People are judge by the label they are first given, whether it be from the first impression they make of themselve, or the impression given by word of mouth. Ben brings up a good point about the 'gay' word. People I meet to this day are still surprised when I tell them because I don't match all the feminie/flamboyant associations that are connected to that word. People dont associate being gay someone just being attracted to the same sex. Though I don't really blame them as the media doesn't really potray this much.
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Re: Male-Male sexuality and desire universal, not 'gay'?

Postby nimby » Fri Jan 18, 2013 7:51 pm

Ben wrote:I think this is just a matter of semantics.

Being "gay" is a term I don't care for because I take it somewhat literally - a guy who walks around with a stupid grin on his face dancing and singing Disney showtunes.
I'm not like that. I am simply a man, who is sexually aroused by other men. I don't like pussy, I like cock, and I wanna be with like-minded men.

I've found that the term "androsexual" to the the best. It simply states that you are sexually attracted to male anatomy, while saying nothing about your sex, mental gender, or your demeanor.
There is also the term "andro-emotional" which means that you're also drawn emotionally towards masculinity and a masculine mind. This one is somewhat looser and a but fuzzy.

Unfortunately, very few people know what this means, and when I tell them I'm androsexual, they just look at me funny. That's when I simply say "Look, I'm homo".



As for the universal-ness of M2M sex, I'm pretty sure that if 1/10 is 100% homo, and 1/10 are 100% hetero. The rest of the 8/10 are in fact bisexual, leading socially constructed heterosexual lives.
It's commonplace that young boys masturbate together, and each other. It's even common that they suck each other. I believe most kids are a clean slate, sexually. Then as they grow up, the gradually conform to the social norm.
Nowdays we're seeing an emergence of more and more people who bend the labels, if not breaking them altogether. I know this from reading 100s of internet posts from men who identify themselves as 100% heterosexual yet they also like to suck cock (!) ... That's like 1+1=3. It's simply not true. The label "heterosexual" means that you're exclusively interested in the opposite sex.

What I think is going on, is that there is great confusion all around these days. Everybody's image of a homo is that he is an effeminate, lisping sissyboy. Bisexuals are generally seen as sexually confused or as sexual deviants, so they don't get much respect either from the str8 community nor the gay community for that matter. Since any label other than heterosexual also have additional implications of demeanor, the so called hetero men who are traditionally masculine suddenly don't know what to call themselves, so they stick with "str8 guy who likes to suck cock" rather than just calling themselves "bi" or "closeted homo".

The Ancient Greeks had a society where men had sex with men for fun, and had sex with women in order to build a family. We know that men fell in love with women, yet they also had sex with other men. Conversely, we also know that men fell in love with other men, yet they took a wife to bear their children. This was normal in their society.

Deep down, I don't think we're any different from the Ancient Greek - only our society is.

Brilliantly said, Ben. But to take it a step further, I also believe that a person's sexuality isn't carved in stone and can change over time and life experiences. But to stay on topic, yes, I believe that male/male affection is much more common than we here in 21st century North America believe, just that the religious right have distorted scripture to beyond recognition for their own selfish needs.
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Re: Male-Male sexuality and desire universal, not 'gay'?

Postby Odeh » Thu Jan 31, 2013 8:51 pm

I read an article and it stated that some of the younger guys are using the term "mostly straight" they like girls but they admit to bromance and liking the right guy, so I think the
traditional labels are dropping....I think what people overlook is that in this culture (United States) is a non-contact culture especially where males are concerned..In non-western
societies it is common for men to hold hands, kiss on the cheek, admire each other but no one has a " gay identity"... Someone I knew in the Peace Corps was in a non-westerm
society and he said guys held hands, held each other and sex did happen but they had no concept of "gay"....

The only social space in this culture where this is permitted is the gay space which had to be created to accommodate the same-sex nature...even though an ex-jock told me
things go on sometimes in sports locker rooms or people get approached...I wonder why guys who are in prison not labeled "gay"...I guess outside the gay space the same-sex
nature is expressed in "the down low" (see Brokeback Mountain)...

I would say then that male-male sexuality is 90% universal in varying degrees if one were to use traditional societies as evidence...if one studied how say Indian guys in India
interacted physically vs. American guys in America..my 2 cents
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Re: Male-Male sexuality and desire universal, not 'gay'?

Postby nimby » Sun May 12, 2013 8:52 pm

I recently found an interesting online book that fits right in here. It's available as a free PDF download or as an audiobook. It's a very good read.

Grero: The Masculine Gender

http://www.grero.com/
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Re: Male-Male sexuality and desire universal, not 'gay'?

Postby thisisme33 » Sun Aug 04, 2013 4:33 am

qwertz wrote:I consider M2M sexual desire as perfectly universal and normal.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexual ... in_animals

I even wonder why men don't use heterosexualty only for utilitarian breeding and homosexuality in all other cases like some species in the animal kingdom. That would make things quite easier and more sensitive as guys can tune in into each other no problem, while male and female tuning in into each other is quite a problem. Guys know better what a guy sexually needs. Women will never have a clue.


That is a really GAY thing to say and total nonsense. Such attitudes do masculine homosexuals no justice (and are generally made by faux-masculines). FACE FACTS: Just because you (and me) like penis (and all that comes with it) it DOES not mean all other guys do. Sexuality is NOT a choice or a rational decision......you cannot have sex with that which does not turn you on.......why don't you have sex with women......because the idea might gross you out or do very little for you.....show some respect to straight men. And don't get me wrong if a predominantly straight (and hot) dude wants to cross the line and do so with me....I am as happy to oblige as the next guy. But that is not the point. BTW I actually find most gay men don't have a clue how to give head any more than women (contrary to the myth) and many are not in tune to other's sexual needs at all.....but sometimes one does find one who is.
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Re: Male-Male sexuality and desire universal, not 'gay'?

Postby nimby » Sun Aug 11, 2013 7:26 pm

Wow, do you ever make some wild assumptions. Many straight men cross over the line and have sex with men, they just don't consider themselves "gay". Besides liking cock, their are many things affiliated with being "gay" (clothes, music, jobs, residences, etc...) that lots of men don't ascribe to, so they don't want to be grouped into that subculture. They are just men who like me.
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Re: Male-Male sexuality and desire universal, not 'gay'?

Postby catapult » Sun Aug 11, 2013 8:19 pm

So do we think more straight men are interested in guys than gay men interested in women, or straight women interested in women, or lesbians interested in men?

I also don't see why we think that would be so.

Do you honestly feel that straight men are more inclined to be interested in men than you are interested in women?

Might be true but I don't feel it - can't grok it.

If they are, then they are not really straight. Not making them declare their gayness, but they must be close to the mid-point line on the scale.

I think I am just over the mid-point line to the gay side and I have no desire for women.
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