A discernible masculine gay identity?

Discussion on what it means to be straight acting, whether it's good, bad or indifferent.

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Is there need to establish a discernible masculine gay identity?

Yes.
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No.
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Total votes : 44

Postby Smitty » Sun Aug 14, 2005 5:11 pm

*B*i*L*L*y wrote:....but be careful, your masculinity "quota" may be called into question for not supporting the cause....

No one has questioned anyone's 'masculinity "quota"'. That is an idea you have introduced in effort to discredit those you imagine to be your foes.
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Postby J » Sun Aug 14, 2005 7:46 pm

....but be careful, your masculinity "quota" may be called into question for not supporting the cause....


I thought your "masculinity quota" was CONFIRMED by not supporting the cause??? LOL Just kidding! I don't think of people either way by how and if they support the cause...

edu999 wrote:Anyway... hehehe... in my opinion... be masculine, be feminine, be somewhere in between. Bottom line is, just be yourself. Don't worry about what other people think, what others consider masculine or feminine, and whether people think one is better than the other. And don't judge others by how you personally define (and value) masculinity or effeminacy. Just be yourself.


YES! Especially the last three words (stated twice!). At that point there should have been one big AMEN and the end of the arguing. Karlo, you rock!
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Postby Ben » Mon Aug 29, 2005 9:17 pm

Wow this thread really took off...
A discernable masculine gay identity is needed... simply bacause there are guys here who answered yes.

Case closed. Ben wins.
I'd like to thank everyone who lost. :P
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Postby godless » Tue Aug 30, 2005 7:50 pm

I don't think "we" need flags, banners, etc. but I do think we need to push back. I've both seen and experienced persecution and ostracization because I/they didn't act fem enough and didn't conform. What really burns me is that the same people that want to treat me as a pariah will bend over backwards to "support" some poor, confused dude that wants to cut his dick off. To me that's hypocrisy worthy of George W. The saddest thing of all is that the masculine guys that like dick are their best bet for getting the gay lifestyle finally accepted, if for no other reason than the fact that we really do buck the stupid stereotype that the straights have of gay men.
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Postby Smitty » Sat Sep 03, 2005 9:23 am

What surprises me is that so many are personally threatened by a discusion of this subject and feel a need to stop it.

Ironically, this exchange furthers one goal of the critics. The subject is "A discernible masculine gay identity?" One definition of 'discernible' is ' perceptible by the senses or intellect'. Does that suggest to anyone other than myself that establishing a discernable masculine gay identity includes being out? Hasn't that been one of the stereotypes used against gay men who identify as masculine - that we are all hiding in the closet?

You know, I don't always understand discussions here among men who identify as feminine. I read the threads. I try to learn. Once in a while I try to contribute. But I always feel like I'm on the outside. Should that be justification for squelching the discussions?

It works the same in reverse. Some of us feel we are breaking new ground. No one has claimed to be 'Right' with a capital 'R'. We need the freedom to discuss this issue honestly and openly. That includes the need to express ourselves even when we know we are wrong. We need the freedom to express our ignorance. How the hell are we expected to learn anything if we aren't allowed to discuss what we don't fully understand?

Join us. Read. Learn with us. When you have something constructive to say, contribute. But please don't dump on us because you have heard it all before or whatever. That doesn't help anyone.

I haven't read anything here that denigrates anyone. That isn't the goal. Even if that were to happen, we are talking about learning here and part of that is having the freedom to express our ignorance.

You have one choice. Do you intend to help or harm?

If being gay means we are all brothers, you will give us the space we need to explore our identities.
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Postby james » Sat Sep 03, 2005 10:17 am

I don't experience the gay community as "all brothers." My observation, and I want to stress this is MY observation and it could be wrong, is that there are a lot of factions and backbiting. There are some values which I consider masculine (though, yes indeed, they can be shared by all humans, it's just that I, personally, tend to see them as masculine) such as self-contol, fidelity, and prudence which tend to be dismissed by many, (not all) in the gay community. It would take you a long time to find a booth at a gay pride festival dedicated to self-control and mongamy--though I'm sure one would be there somewhere.

My experience on this board--and I recognize how quickly some of your fingers will move to spell out "victim" and "whiny" --is that when I have tried to talk about religion (and by religion I mean public worship which is essential to my "spirituality" which I know, I know, I know is different) or monogamy, I tend to get flamed. So I don't think that the "brotherhood of gays" really extends to people of faith. My experience has been that the first suggestion from the gay community is "Get rid of your faith, grab a box of condoms, and join us."

So, if a masculine identity includes, FOR ME, such things as self-control, fidelity, responsibility, maturity, accountability, true monogamy, prudence, etc. I don't find a lot of support in the gay community.

That is just my experience. I bring it up for discussion. Attacks and derision and sarcasm will be ignored. Devilnuts, don't even try.
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Postby Smitty » Sat Sep 03, 2005 10:30 am

james wrote:So, if a masculine identity includes, FOR ME, such things as self-control, fidelity, responsibility, maturity, accountability, true monogamy, prudence, etc. I don't find a lot of support in the gay community.

James - Personally, I don't have a problem with any of your goals/values. Any number of people on this board share one or more of them. I do have a problem with the idea that your way is the only way. I see none of the items you have listed as being either masculine or feminine. I don't understand how your post relates to the subject of this thread.
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Postby Guest » Sat Sep 03, 2005 10:59 am

Smitty wrote:James - Personally, I don't have a problem with any of your goals/values. Any number of people on this board share one or more of them. I do have a problem with the idea that your way is the only way. I see none of the items you have listed as being either masculine or feminine. I don't understand how your post relates to the subject of this thread.


Smitty is right again!

Yes, James. I too, have great resentment, for your constant preaching, that all gay men are, 'hedonistic whores'.
Last edited by Guest on Sat Sep 03, 2005 12:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby james » Sat Sep 03, 2005 12:07 pm

I think that anyone who studies Eastern Religions and their yin/yang distinctions will find that the qualities I list are thought to be masculine by most Eastern thinkers. Also, if you read books on masculinity such as Iron John, Fire in the Belly, and Wild at Heart, you will find that these qualities are thought of as masculine. Also, psychologists such as Jung would make these distinctions--masculine being more rational, and feminine more intuitive. This distinction also forms the basis of Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus. So I think that I am not that far off to consider these qualities masculine. This does not mean that they do not belong to the human race, but what is the point of discussing a masculine identity if there is nothing which is uniquely masculine? Is there anything which which you would consider uniquely masculine?

I am basing my impressions of the gay community on my experience in clubs, bars, and Gay Pride celebrations, and also my many, many gay friends in the theater. As I have said in previous posts, my best friend in high school was a gay prostitute. I have been invited to more orgies than I can count, but no one ever talked to me about prudence or self-control. My experience is apparently limited, and apparently you all have had these conversations and events where self-control, monogamy, accountability, were the primary goal of the gay community. I would love to go to these rallies and clubs--could you give me dates and addresses? Did I miss that issue of the Advocate or Out?


And P. S. I DO NOT GIVE A DAMN WHAT OTHER PEOPLE DO WITH THEIR LIVES. I AM TRYING TO FIND SOME SMALL NICHE IN THE GAY COMMUNITY WHERE I CAN BE ACCEPTED AND SUPPORTED. MY WAY IS MY WAY--NOT THE BEST WAY AND NOT THE ONLY WAY. MY WAY. IS THAT CLEAR EVERYONE? GOOD!!!!!!!!!
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Postby Smitty » Sat Sep 03, 2005 12:15 pm

James - I'm going to be very protective of this thread. This isn't the place for your drama.
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Postby Guest » Sat Sep 03, 2005 12:33 pm

james wrote:
I am basing my impressions of the gay community on my experience in clubs, bars, and Gay Pride celebrations, and also my many, many gay friends in the theater. As I have said in previous posts, my best friend in high school was a gay prostitute. I have been invited to more orgies than I can count, but no one ever talked to me about prudence or self-control. My experience is apparently limited, and apparently you all have had these conversations and events where self-control, monogamy, accountability, were the primary goal of the gay community. I would love to go to these rallies and clubs--could you give me dates and addresses? Did I miss that issue of the Advocate or Out?


Then stop hanging out with gay prostitutes and bar flies. You might learn something.


james wrote:And P. S. I DO NOT GIVE A DAMN WHAT OTHER PEOPLE DO WITH THEIR LIVES. I AM TRYING TO FIND SOME SMALL NICHE IN THE GAY COMMUNITY WHERE I CAN BE ACCEPTED AND SUPPORTED. MY WAY IS MY WAY--NOT THE BEST WAY AND NOT THE ONLY WAY. MY WAY. IS THAT CLEAR EVERYONE? GOOD!!!!!!!!!


Then maybe you should continue hanging around, your gay prostitute and bar fly buddies.

That seem's to have been your, 'small niche' for 25 years.

Go back to 'Hennepin Ave' boi.
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Postby edu999 » Sat Sep 03, 2005 12:34 pm

One thing that I've thought about on and off... when people on this board discuss masculinity vis-a-vis effeminacy, we all tend to think in the sphere of attitudes and behavior (not always, but often). However I often think of masc-v-femme in terms of physical deportment, e.g. the stereotypical "gay men swish and straight men don't". I'm curious to read what others think about the physical aspects of masc-v-femme... limp wrists? swagger? swishiness? long strides as opposed to small steps when walking? bone-crushing handshakes instead of delicate, limp ones? yada yada yada...
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Postby Guest » Sat Sep 03, 2005 12:48 pm

edu999 wrote:One thing that I've thought about on and off... when people on this board discuss masculinity vis-a-vis effeminacy, we all tend to think in the sphere of attitudes and behavior (not always, but often). However I often think of masc-v-femme in terms of physical deportment, e.g. the stereotypical "gay men swish and straight men don't". I'm curious to read what others think about the physical aspects of masc-v-femme... limp wrists? swagger? swishiness? long strides as opposed to small steps when walking? bone-crushing handshakes instead of delicate, limp ones? yada yada yada...



Off the subject: I thought it would be nice. if you had some music to go with your avatar. :wink:
http://www.riversongs.net/Flash/dogz.html
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Postby Ben » Sat Sep 03, 2005 3:39 pm

James
While I understand where you're coming from, I'll have to say that FFF is right, even though I think his wording was a little too harsh.

If you don't like the bars, the clubs and the parades, if you don't like the atmosphere in those places, then boycot them. Of course, many guys who like that stuff will tell you, that you're self loathing and that you're the one who misses out so don't whine. It's a defence mechanism. Nothing you haven't heard before, right? But you know what? You shouldn't take offence by them. They don't know. They have no say in the matter. Only you know for sure what you're into. Only you know if you miss out or not.
Be YOURself. It's totally ok for them, why shouldn't it be for you?

Another thing I always like to add is,
be yourself but don't expect everyone to like it. Nevermind those who don't. Mind those who do. You said it yourself and I agree, there is no such thing as true "family" or "tribe" or "brotherhood", where every idea is welcome.
That's just too obvious in this thread.
It's oxymoronic. For "brotherhood to work takes lots of unity, homogenity... but that isn't true here. We are very heterogeneous like anybody. Being a member of the same minority is simply not enough.
Last edited by Ben on Sun Sep 04, 2005 12:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby james » Sat Sep 03, 2005 8:02 pm

WOULD YOU PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE STOP GIVING ME ADVICE? I DID NOT ASK FOR ADVICE, I DO NOT WANT ADVICE. I AM PERFECTLY HAPPY WITH MY CHOICES. STOP WITH THE ADVICE!

Thanks! :)

And, by the way, Far From Flaming, fu** you, and stop answering my posts.
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Postby Guest » Sat Sep 03, 2005 9:15 pm

james wrote:WOULD YOU PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE STOP GIVING ME ADVICE? I DID NOT ASK FOR ADVICE, I DO NOT WANT ADVICE. I AM PERFECTLY HAPPY WITH MY CHOICES. STOP WITH THE ADVICE!

Thanks! :)

And, by the way, Far From Flaming, fu** you, and stop answering my posts.


I was not, giving you advice. I have grown sick of your constant coments about your negative ' perspective ' of the gay community.

I am probably one of the most verbal, about the negative, in the gay community. That is why I have always chose, to stay" far from the flaming crowd."

I have alway been able to find, a few positive people to hang out with. I guess that's why I'm here. I have found alot here. I have made some goodfriends.

It is none of our fault, that for the last 30 years of your life you have only experienced the: twinks, trolls, qweens, tricks, whores, and prostitutes.

I, as many here do, resent being bulked together, with all the TRASH FROM YOUR JADED SICK PAST.
Last edited by Guest on Sat Sep 03, 2005 11:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby james » Sat Sep 03, 2005 11:11 pm

I wouldn't bulk you together with them. They were nice. They were smart. You are nothing.
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Postby Guest » Sat Sep 03, 2005 11:41 pm

Far from Flaming wrote:
It is none of our fault, that for the last 30 years of your life you have only experienced the: twinks, trolls, qweens, tricks, whores, and prostitutes.

I, as many here do, resent being bulked together, with all the TRASH FROM YOUR JADED SICK PAST.



james wrote: I wouldn't bulk you together with them. They were nice. They were smart. You are nothing.


Thankyou,

Why on earth would I want, to be bulked with them?

If being nice and being smart mean's being a "teenage prostitute," in your world. I would rather be nothing.
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Postby Ben » Sat Sep 03, 2005 11:49 pm

james wrote:WOULD YOU PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE STOP GIVING ME ADVICE? I DID NOT ASK FOR ADVICE, I DO NOT WANT ADVICE. I AM PERFECTLY HAPPY WITH MY CHOICES. STOP WITH THE ADVICE!

Thanks :)


I realize that you don't want advice. You want somebody to agree with you. I'm afraid sympathy is all I can offer. Not total agreement.
There is sometimes a difference between wanting advice and needing it. As long as your posts indicate you need some advice, you're gonna get it. Now sit your ass down & shut up and take your medicine! :D
(kidding) :P :wink:
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Postby james » Sun Sep 04, 2005 12:26 am

No, I don't need advice, there is nothing in my posts which suggests I need advice, no I don't need people to agree with me. So shut the fu** up already. I don't know how to express the depth of my anger at the people on this board who try to give me advice. Give it to yourselves. Take your own *$#*@# medicine, you asshole.

I am angry. Whatever you are trying to do, it's not working, so stop.
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Postby Ben » Sun Sep 04, 2005 12:31 am

...Take your own *$#*@# medicine, you asshole.


Oh I have taken it alright. It was offered to me by many of the great guys on this site. At least I was smart enough to realize when somebody was lending a helping hand.

You are not angry, you're bitter.

Tragic.
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Postby james » Sun Sep 04, 2005 1:03 am

Here's an idea--why don't you simply think of me as someone who is just not ready for all your wonderful advice?

Or do you want to be one of those people who give advice to people who don't want it?

You're not misguided. you're idiotic.

Tragic.
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Postby Ben » Sun Sep 04, 2005 1:31 am

james wrote:Here's an idea--why don't you simply think of me as someone who is just not ready for all your wonderful advice?


Now this above statement really gives some perspective. "Not ready" being the key words. Too bad you have to resort to insults. I guess you do that because you find advice insulting and patronizing. You should try seening past your adrenaline rush and realize that people give you advice out of kindness. Didn't I say I agree with many of your ideals? The advice was simply there to maybe give you another angle. Not to be insulting or patronizing.

...Or do you want to be one of those people who give advice to people who don't want it?


My question to you is, what is it that YOU want?
You obviously don't want anything to do with any of us guys here on this site, you don't want/need people to agree, you don't want/need advice, you are happy with your choices, you don't even seem to want people to answer your posts at all ... I don't see that there is much left but to ignore you completely, and that includes not reading anything with the name "James" on it. Then the whole purpose of you posting here is lost. What would you have us do? Simply go; "...Ok noted", or else you'll curse and make insults? Sorry pal, that's not how this works.

EDIT: the above question is NOT meant as an insult. It's an honest question, followed by my own thoughts that lead up to it. If you're about to answer it with more insults, then don't bother. It's actually there for you to ask yourself rather than giving me or anyone else an answer.

Be angry and bitter all you want, but think through long and hard why you're here at all, because you're really making an asshole out of yourself.
Last edited by Ben on Sat Sep 24, 2005 1:57 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Postby edu999 » Sun Sep 04, 2005 2:45 am

james wrote:WOULD YOU PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE STOP GIVING ME ADVICE? I DID NOT ASK FOR ADVICE, I DO NOT WANT ADVICE. I AM PERFECTLY HAPPY WITH MY CHOICES. STOP WITH THE ADVICE!

Thanks! :)

And, by the way, Far From Flaming, fu** you, and stop answering my posts.


The petulant child is turning into a troll.
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Postby james » Sun Sep 04, 2005 10:21 am

Here's what I want: I'd like acceptance and support from some small part of the gay community JUST AS I AM. I'd like to be able to say what's on my mind and not get attacked or criticized. I would really, really like people not to offer me unasked-for advice. I'd like to participate in discussions where disagreements are handled by beginning with "I respect your opinion, but here's what I think. . ." rather than insults. I am willing to admit my mistakes in these areas and in the future do my part. What about you?
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