A discernible masculine gay identity?

Discussion on what it means to be straight acting, whether it's good, bad or indifferent.

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Is there need to establish a discernible masculine gay identity?

Yes.
22
50%
No.
22
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Total votes : 44

Postby Ben » Sun Sep 04, 2005 11:42 am

james wrote:Here's what I want: I'd like acceptance and support from some small part of the gay community JUST AS I AM. I'd like to be able to say what's on my mind and not get attacked or criticized. I would really, really like people not to offer me unasked-for advice.


Most times as I see it, advice, acceptance and also acknowledgement (of our opinions) are all intermeshed within a post. People seldom ASK for advice out loud. You give advice because of what you read in other people's posts. You give it because you care, because there might be some things you think the other person needs to hear, something he may have overlooked.

Didn't I say that you were ok just the way you are? That's acceptance. Didn't I say I understood and agreed with some of your sentiments? That's acknowledgement. Then I apparently made the grave mistake of giving you MY angle on certain things. The way I see things, followed by a "pat on the shoulder" joke to easy up the atmosphere. What do you do? You explode and throws a tantrum like some 14 year old. Is that what you call acceptance? It's all about you..? ... anybody who dare give their perspectives, is gonna "get it"...?
I am willing to admit my mistakes in these areas and in the future do my part.

Then why don't you? Sorry but the only thing I've heard here is you trying to justify your bad behavior, and shuffle the blame onto everybody else, who didn't put their words quite to your exact liking.
What about you?

I have no problem admitting my mistakes. However in this case, I honestly don't think I have anything to apologize for, which is more than I can say for you. You overreacted badly. Your behavior toward me was totally uncalled for. I'd expect nothing less than a sincere apology.
But then again, I am an optimist.
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Postby james » Sun Sep 04, 2005 3:10 pm

I offer you a sincere apology. I recognize that you were trying to be helpful.

I would like you to look back at the posts leading up to this post and see if there weren't attacks directed against me which might require an apology as well. That's up to you.

Back to the thread--


The concept of a discernable masculine identity for gays raises, FOR ME, these 3 questions:

!. Are there values which are discernably masculine?
2. Should I would to build my gay identity on those values?
3. Does the gay community support those values?

1. While I think all values are available to everyone, I think that some values are traditionally held to be "masculine." I include the values of self-control, integrity, fidelity, loyalty, accountability, maturity, responsibility, etc. This is what I think. I'm fine with people disagreeing with this concept or this list, but this is where I am coming from.

2. My goal is to keep these ideals in front of me so I can grow in my masculinity. I think that a truly masculine gay identity would be based on these values. Again, that is just my opinion, but I offer it up for friendly discussion.

3. Although we can all point to gay men and couples who do a beautiful job of expressing these values, no, I do not think most of the gay community lives by these values. I did not say "all"--but I really think that these values do not form a part of the identity of MOST of the gay community. Yes, that is a sharp critique, but that is my opinion. Again, I offer it up for friendly discussion.

I hope to develop a masculine gay identity, and free and friendly discussion of these issues will help. I will work hard on how I word my posts, and I hope the same consideration will be given me.
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Postby Ben » Mon Sep 05, 2005 9:12 am

james wrote:I offer you a sincere apology. I recognize that you were trying to be helpful.

I would like you to look back at the posts leading up to this post and see if there weren't attacks directed against me which might require an apology as well. That's up to you.


I would say so. But really, I'm not responsible for what other guys say.
I try to keep a civil tone. That's about it.

Apology accepted. All forgiven and forgotten. **handshake**
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Postby Guest » Mon Sep 05, 2005 10:36 am

Don't bother with one james. Not that you would.
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Postby I_hate_myself_s0_much » Fri Sep 23, 2005 7:59 pm

.................
Last edited by I_hate_myself_s0_much on Sun Mar 04, 2007 10:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Smitty » Fri Sep 23, 2005 8:16 pm

I_hate_myself_s0_much wrote:Of course there is, fem guys are nothing but loud, obnoxious disgraces to the gay community! All gay guys should be masculine and unnoticably gay! We all should avoid fem guys like the plague!

That's not in my copy of the manual.
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Postby blu » Fri Sep 23, 2005 8:29 pm

I_hate_myself_s0_much wrote:Of course there is, fem guys are nothing but loud, obnoxious disgraces to the gay community! All gay guys should be masculine and unnoticably gay! We all should avoid fem guys like the plague!

Dont be silly, fem guys are the gay community :lol:
Stonewall anyone? :arrow: if it wasnt for us, some of these masculine men would be walking around looking like fools.
As far as I've seen, they arent doing much in the community, they are just a good fu** and a free meal :roll:

:lol: Im a mess.

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Postby Ben » Sat Sep 24, 2005 2:25 pm

I_hate_myself_s0_much wrote:Of course there is, fem guys are nothing but loud, obnoxious disgraces to the gay community! All gay guys should be masculine and unnoticably gay! We all should avoid fem guys like the plague!


Take a good look at where the poll is. The "No" side is in majority, even if it's very even. Doesn't that show how diverse the gay community (for lack of a better term) is? I'm sure there is room in it for you too.
___________________________________________________________

I don't see why masculine men can't have their own visible identity in the parades and anywhere else if they feel like it. I don't see why that should be threatening or insulting. After all every other sub group can. What I do see a lot is that str8acting, masculine gay men are getting called out to make themselves more visible - yet we can't have, and proudly display their own identity, else we'll offend ...who? It just doesn't make sense. :?
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Postby Guest » Sun Sep 25, 2005 10:09 am


I don't see why masculine men can't have their own visible identity in the parades and anywhere else if they feel like it. I don't see why that should be threatening or insulting. After all every other sub group can. What I do see a lot is that str8acting, masculine gay men are getting called out to make themselves more visible - yet we can't have, and proudly display their own identity, else we'll offend ...who? It just doesn't make sense. :?


I feel that the 'highly visable' non-masculine world, enjoys their domination of the world's veiw on gay men.

The idea, of, masculine men displaying their, identity, would be a threat to many, that refuse to share their stage.

That is why we see so many comments about the fake, self loathing, pathetic, straight-actor, in certain threads. And they are all from non-masculine men, often droping by to post one or two times, and then leave forever.

There are many that would try to push us into the closet, they accuse us all of living in.

If we had our own ' Pride Parade. '
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Postby Hybridacting » Tue Sep 27, 2005 9:32 am

blu wrote:
I_hate_myself_s0_much wrote:Of course there is, fem guys are nothing but loud, obnoxious disgraces to the gay community! All gay guys should be masculine and unnoticably gay! We all should avoid fem guys like the plague!

Dont be silly, fem guys are the gay community :lol:
Stonewall anyone? :arrow: if it wasnt for us, some of these masculine men would be walking around looking like fools.
As far as I've seen, they arent doing much in the community, they are just a good fu** and a free meal :roll:
:lol: :lol: :lol: I sometimes like a good self-important queen, it reminds me of someone: what? :shock: Oh! moi!

:lol: Im a mess.

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Re: A discernible masculine gay identity?

Postby spinmearound » Mon Oct 17, 2005 1:09 am

I personally don't think we need to seek inclusion in the larger gay community. This is a good place where I can be myself.

I really don't think we should be involved with the gay pride parade, but I really don't know how we are going to change the thinking of the general public. The whole reason why I don't wanna come out to everyone is the fact that they've got all the antiquated gay stereotypes (If I may use Far-From-Flaming's words) stuck in their heads. Not coming out really helps me interact with the guys better.

On the other hand, not coming out may keep them in ignorance. But it's on a need to know basis. I spoke with a str8 guy, and one of the things he said bothered him was when a gay guy just comes up to him and says, "I'm gay". He said it's not a problem if in the course of friendship or a conversation that it be revealed to him.

It would be so much easier if we had a masculine homosexual category in our society. Society as a whole needs to redefine its own boundaries. Then, we can have more health in our society.

We as guys need to stick it out, and then slowly reveal ourselves. The general public would be more accepting to change if it came in slow, small oieces.
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Re: A discernible masculine gay identity?

Postby Ben » Tue Oct 18, 2005 4:09 pm

spinmearound wrote:I personally don't think we need to seek inclusion in the larger gay community.

You know, that is the wisest thing anybody's said on here in a long time! So simple!:)
People make such a huge deal out of this "being gay-thing", and no, I'm not talking about the str8s. I'm talking about some gay people. Many people here have already claimed that THAT's what being str8acting is all about.

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Re: A discernible masculine gay identity?

Postby edu999 » Tue Oct 18, 2005 4:17 pm

spinmearound wrote:I really don't think we should be involved with the gay pride parade, but I really don't know how we are going to change the thinking of the general public.

...

On the other hand, not coming out may keep them in ignorance.


Ah. Now that's a conundrum, isn't it?

:)
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Postby spinmearound » Wed Oct 19, 2005 5:38 pm

Yeah Edu, it seems like a conundrum, doesn't it? :) I guess we'll all figure out what we need to do sooner or later.
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Re: A discernible masculine gay identity?

Postby Texas_Thang » Wed Oct 19, 2005 5:44 pm

edu999 wrote:
spinmearound wrote:I really don't think we should be involved with the gay pride parade, but I really don't know how we are going to change the thinking of the general public.

...

On the other hand, not coming out may keep them in ignorance.


Ah. Now that's a conundrum, isn't it?

:)


Therein IS the conundrum. How to make ourselves visible as gay men without participation?
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Postby spinmearound » Wed Oct 19, 2005 6:07 pm

Right. And how do we make ourselves visible without people putting their stereotypes on us? In my experience, some people are not so homophobic, but sometimes they still act wierd.

Sometimes when they think I'm straight, and then I tell them I'm not, they think that I must not have been out of the closet for very long. Furthermore, they think that after I've been out for longer, I must feel and be more naturally feminine. Overall, I am the way I am. I might still be dealing with homophobia a little but, I'm not really putting up any fronts. I act as myself.

It's just that people will see things on us that don't exist. That's why I almost tell no one.

Hey, Texas_thang, I like that pic of the two cowboys.
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Postby Texas_Thang » Wed Oct 19, 2005 9:54 pm

The picture: Brokeback Mountain. Opens 12/9 on the coast, in 1/06 inland.

Personally I think that just be being out there and open, and unthreatening..that's the answer.
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Postby spinmearound » Wed Oct 19, 2005 10:26 pm

Well my approach has been to get to know people, and as they get to know me, they begin to know what I like.
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Postby spinmearound » Wed Oct 19, 2005 10:28 pm

It's just been the people I know that aren't accepting to gay people that I don't know what to do about. They have stereotypes engrained.
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Postby Schlodesss » Thu Oct 20, 2005 9:33 am

Here's my take.

If all you "masculin" "straight acting" "butch" [you get my point] regular Gay men, do not want to attend pride parades that's fine, I don't care much for the idea either, however you still want some sort of way to show society that there are infact just as many regular Joe gay men as there are anything else on the planet... well guess what the solution is for making that happen. Look in the mirror. Cause yer lookin at him.

I have to admit, i'm out to a fair number of people, all ones who.... it was time they knew. It's funny.. some of em, hell I build up, or tune half their cars! :roll: The rest that don't have cars, have known me for a good while.... were they ALL surprised??? Yup, even my mom didn't know... and seriously thought I stayed away from dating women because of how we all grew up so rough...

Now, I can gaurantee you.. each and every one of these people, even the ones who don't like it [Gay], have had to re-evaluate what they percieve as "Gay" because they now know that I am, and know that I am nothing like the stereotypical Gay guy.... [which btw, I ain't got no beefs with.. I just wish more of the non stereotypicals would pipe up, & kick the closet door open already.....] and rather, I am just the same old Steve, the Steve i've always been, but the only thing different now, is they are aware Steve likes/prefers men, and not women.... Even the ones that hated it at first got over it and don't care now.

So you don't like pride parades but wish there were more presence of masculin or straightacting types of Gay men out there, instead of looking elsewhere, start with you! You'd be amazed how many minds it will change!!! If every one of us did that, eventually it would just fall into place because everyone would know someone they care about, that is Gay, AS WELL AS, the same ol person they have always known/loved...

And also the more of us that DO.. the more that will follow... as it will get easier and easier to do so over time, because eventually the ones who do, will simply just become more accepted as there will be more known gay men to begin with.. It won't all be perfect, and there will be parents that will disown at first, ditto w/ friends, etc but still. It starts with you. [I think anyways].
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Postby Guest » Thu Oct 20, 2005 10:41 am

Steve, you have just said one of the greatest things, you have ever said here.

Basicly what you have said is "Pride" comes from within.

It is not external.

It does not come from joining the crowd.

It is a highly personal and individual thing.

You also say that "change" comes from within.

You change the view of the people around you because, they know who you are.

Great idea, Steve.
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much later I know, but still confused

Postby Guest » Tue Feb 21, 2006 6:03 pm

...
Last edited by Guest on Sun Mar 26, 2006 6:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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confused

Postby spinmearound » Tue Feb 21, 2006 6:20 pm

hey Berg. I agree with you. In ancient times, homosexuality was seen as fairly normal, but there wasn't so much a category of a homosexual man or woman per se. I reject the term "gay" when describing myself because of all the stereotyping that goes along with that. That helps me out when I mix with straight people. I have just been through a scary situation where someone tried to volunteer that info about my sexuality for me. I denied it just because i want my privacy. It just seemed like that programing of the idea that the only functional people are straight. I know otherwise, and I guess I just have to learn how to not take that seriously. i do however feel the need to have a very masculine gender preformance, but i'm just beginning to be aware of how my gender reflects my sexuality.
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Re: confused

Postby Guest » Tue Feb 21, 2006 6:36 pm

...
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Postby Ben » Thu Feb 23, 2006 9:52 am

Once someone has come out do they feel the need to act a certain way?


That is a very good question. I think the answer in many cases is yes. It could be everything from trying to be accepted, to exaggerating ones gay behavior because of having been repressed for years. Some exaggerate in order to be visible to other men who prefer men. It's been said on this site before, but before the internet, gays had a much harder time finding other gays. There were only so many options, like bars, contacts in gay oriented mags etc. Nowdays, there is a meeting place for just about every type of man who prefers other men - on the internet. This site being one of them.

...Well, a study done by M. Dorais showed that 80% of effeminiate men are heterosexuals. Why do we have to presume all the time? Shouldn't just wait for the person to volunteer the info?


That depends on how they are effeminate. Some people would think a younger guy is effeminate and possibly gay for liking gardening. But if an older guy is into gardening, it becomes a more "straight", sort of senior citizen activity.

When a gay man displays effeminate behavior, many times, it's in various degrees of exaggerated behavior, displayed by most women. That would also be the very reason it's called "effeminate" even if that term is highly subjective to our personal views. We have certain descriptive terms for certain things (especially if those things are somewhat out of the ordinary for the particular society we live in) because of our collective frame of reference.

While it's important to question our set views every once in a while, why we use certain terms, why this why that, I also think it's important not to over-do it. Words like "masculine" and "normal" and "gay" and "straightacting" have been taken apart, chewed, spit out, grinded, poked and prodded to death on this site - all while I get the feeling that most people here know exactly, or at least have a pretty good idea of what these terms mean.

Our spoken languages are based on nouns, verbs and adjectives. Start questioning and disecting every adjective word, leave every adjective word up for everyone's personal interpretation no matter how wild it is, and we would end up in verbal limbo. We need some kind of norm. For example, I don't like the term "gay" either - for the very same reasons that Spinmearound mentioned. Well, tough... I still use it because that way, everyone with a brain will understand what I mean. If I wanna emphazise that I'm not into the stereotypes, I will do that. There is no reason to "cleave hairs" as we say in Swedish.

I think the discussion here is more about if the gay community needs a more discernable non-stereotypical identity in addition to the already existing ones. It's the same thing, just worded differently. And the answer to that is obvious; If people feel that it's needed, then why not?
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