A discernible masculine gay identity?

Discussion on what it means to be straight acting, whether it's good, bad or indifferent.

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Is there need to establish a discernible masculine gay identity?

Yes.
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No.
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A discernible masculine gay identity?

Postby tigakub » Tue Jul 05, 2005 11:31 pm

There seems to have been a lot of debate about the negative aspects of this site: members dissing feminine gays; the problems with the name itself (i.e. that "straight" and "acting" imply that we're fake and that being seen as heterosexual is somehow preferable to being identified as gay).

On the one hand, I've seen posts complaining about being marginalized because one is not "gay" enough.

On the other hand, I've seen posts complaining that we're not pro-active enough, that we should seek inclusion in the gay world, and that by "hiding-out" here we're somehow legitimizing the stereotype of gays being effeminate.

How about if we take a more positive approach? What would people like to see at this site? Would people like to pro-actively promote some kind of definite sub-culture in the gay community? How about we identify exactly what it is we want?

Are we looking for a discernible masculine gay identity?

Are we satisfied to have a site were we can congregate and shoot the sh*t? Or do we want logos, banners, and flag adorned floats at gay day parades to proclaim our existence to the world?
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Postby Lesley R. Charles » Wed Jul 06, 2005 5:51 am

I don't think there is a need for a discernable masculine gay identity. I think everybody needs to accept what traits they have and either love and embrace them or change them. I have always been naturally feminine and always knew I was born the wrong sex. I have spent many years trying to accept being born male and learn to act like a man, but I could never really pull it off. So now as soon as I can afford it, I will start transitioning into who I am. If you are masculine, that is great with me, if you want to be open and out, that is great, if you prefer the closet fine. But if you stay in the closet, please don't complain about how straightacting gay men are hard to find. It is probably because they are stiill in the closet too.
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Postby tigakub » Wed Jul 06, 2005 10:12 am

Lesley R. Charles wrote:If you are masculine, that is great with me, if you want to be open and out, that is great, if you prefer the closet fine. But if you stay in the closet, please don't complain about how straightacting gay men are hard to find. It is probably because they are stiill in the closet too.

I'm sure that no one knows better that you how difficult it is to define your own identity when everyone around you is telling you you're wrong. It must have been hell for you. And I really admire your courage and persistance. As I said, you're an inspiration.

I'm out to my family, friends, colleagues, and anyone who dares ask, if the earring in my right lobe doesn't hit them in the noggin, first. But I can't say that I had an easy time of coming to terms with my own sexuality either. And what I've really noticed and am really pissed off about is the lack of role models that I had growing up -- role models with whom I could identify.

It's easy for me now to see you as a person with courage and tenacity and those are traits worthy of anyone's aspiration. But when I was younger, I couldn't see beyond the messages I got from everyone around me about being gay. I wouldn't have been able to get beyond them far enough to even talk to you, one human being to another, much less get to know you.

I put this question to you: if you had had a MTF transsexual (please correct me if I'm using the wrong terminology) person as a positive role model while you were growing up, how would that have changed your life? If the media didn't portray gays and lesbians as psychopaths or deviants or pederasts or silly prats, how would that have changed all our lives?

Let's say that there were characters like Winston in The Mexican, or Keith in Six Feet Under when I was growing up. I know that James Gandolfini isn't everyone's dish, but he is mine. These are well-rounded, complex characters, who though they have issues, aren't portrayed as comic relief. If I'd had such role models growing up, I might have told myself, hey, I want to be like them. And the fact that I can only think of two gay characters in all of pop media that I can identify with speaks volumes. And I'm sure that most every gay and lesbian can say the same thing whether they like Gandolfini or Rupaul.

If there are "straight-acting" or "butch" or "masculine" (or whatever) gay men who are still in the closet because they can't see beyond a gay stereotype, how much of that is their fault, and how much of that is society's fault for not providing a role model with which they ... we ... can identify?

The very FACT that there exists a web-site with the name "straight-acting" says to me that there IS a need for a discernible masculine gay identity. I don't feel I need to act straight. I just want it to be acknowledged that I'm a gay man who just feels most comfortable and natural being masculine. And I'm not saying that it's impossible to attain that on one's own. I'm just saying that it would have been nice to have had a little company growing up.

And if there is a formal gay group or gay sub-culture that can provide that, isn't that a worthy cause?
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Postby Lesley R. Charles » Wed Jul 06, 2005 10:21 am

Tiga, you have the term correct. I did know of a few like Christine Jorgenson and Renee Richards, just didn't connect what they had to what I had. I also grew up in an Italian family where men are considered important. I think if I had more of a family understanding at an earlier age I would have been fine. Now they are quite supportive of me. I think all of us outside of what society deems normal have a hard time of questioning ourselves. But I do think this makes us stronger once we have gone through the pain. The only regret I have is not facing up to my issues sooner.
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Postby tigakub » Wed Jul 06, 2005 11:39 am

Lesley R. Charles wrote:Tiga, you have the term correct. I did know of a few like Christine Jorgenson and Renee Richards, just didn't connect what they had to what I had. I also grew up in an Italian family where men are considered important. I think if I had more of a family understanding at an earlier age I would have been fine. Now they are quite supportive of me. I think all of us outside of what society deems normal have a hard time of questioning ourselves. But I do think this makes us stronger once we have gone through the pain. The only regret I have is not facing up to my issues sooner.


I hear what you are saying, and I'm glad that you've found acceptance from your family.

Strength from ordeal has its value. And in no way am I trivializing strength derived from pain, but strength can also be obtained from acceptance, support, encouragement and unconditional love. If I feel that people love me, not in spite of, but because of what I am, that can be an immense source of power -- a source that I can't always tap into on my own.

Positive gay role models are not only important to gay people, but also to parents, guardians, and friends of gays. If my parents had thought that being gay was ok, they would have been the ones telling me that, rather than the other way around.
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Postby Lesley R. Charles » Wed Jul 06, 2005 12:12 pm

That's true. In a way the world is changing regarding gay and transsexual rights, but it does have a long way to go. And the people you have to admire are the ones who are out and open about themselves. Role models are very helpful, when I was growing up, I thought I was alone and crazy. When I was young, I wish that there was a forum like this, but there wasn't. Now, I am trying to be there for younger people who are dealing now with the same issues I dealt with.
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Postby Ben » Sat Jul 23, 2005 6:13 pm

I say whatever thrills you as long as you're comfortable in your own skin. But also like I always say, don't expect everyone to be as thrilled about it as you are.

What people need to understand, is that most of us, regardess of being out or not, do not actively hide our "gay" personality by (quoting the slogans of this site) liking sports and changing our own car oil. It's who and what we are.
I'm not out to anybody in real life away from the screen, but even if I was, I wouldn't start behaving any differently.

If you feel a need to have your own flag, banner or whatever to show you belong to a certain category of gay men, then get one. Everyone else can flaunt their personality so why shouldn't you? The chances are though, that nobody would notice you.

A good floater would be one made up as a living room. A group of guys sitting in a couch, having a few beers and watching a ball game. But I'm sure that's already been done.

I voted yes, but only because I'm kinda leaning towards it. There is an alternative missing and that's "don't care eitherway" :wink:
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Postby Smitty » Sat Jul 23, 2005 6:48 pm

Role models. Wow. Yes, it would have made a big difference. But that was then and this is now. We are the role models.

Recent threads/posts confirm we don't even have acceptable language to describe gay men who don't fit... in. We need/deserve identity/community. I like the site quertz posted -> Regular guys. I wish there was a local chapter. It's not that I'm a big joiner, but I haven't seen a similar social opportunity for 'masculine' gays.

T-shirt idea: "Masculine Gay is not an Oxymoron."
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Postby Ben » Sat Jul 23, 2005 8:21 pm

Smitty wrote:Role models. Wow. Yes, it would have made a big difference. But that was then and this is now. We are the role models.

Recent threads/posts confirm we don't even have acceptable language to describe gay men who don't fit... in. We need/deserve identity/community. I like the site quertz posted -> Regular guys. I wish there was a local chapter. It's not that I'm a big joiner, but I haven't seen a similar social opportunity for 'masculine' gays.

T-shirt idea: "Masculine Gay is not an Oxymoron."


Regularguys.org is definitely a counter reaction (to a counter reaction if you will) Though I think it's a nice idea, I also see a world of issues connected to it, as they have a test on whether you "qualify" as a regular guy or not. I find myself to be a regular guy (infact that is a very good way to describe me). 80% of the things on their list is sports, but I don't like sport activities indoor or outdoor, or even watching sports. I like video games and movies and stuff. The only things I was interested in on their list were movie nights and some hiking.

As far as I could see, they don't have a message board, which is, I guess, out of sheer self preservation as hordes of "non-regular" gay men would flood it with angry posts about bigotry, internalized intolerance nomatter how many times they claim that regular guys aren't better - they just want their own hang-out, with people they feel comfortable with.

It's just one of those human things that happen, good or bad. People who share the best personal chemistry want to hang out. Nobody can condemn it. It happens all the time regardless of sexual orientation. "All gay guys must stick together" is just unrealistic - because we're human.
I think it's a nice thing Regularguys.org have started. Though it's a local thing, I wouldn't join them anyway. It would be like joining a boat club when you're not interested in boats. I can be a regular guy without them.
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Postby Smitty » Sat Jul 23, 2005 9:04 pm

Ben wrote:...80% of the things on their list is sports, but I don't like sport activities indoor or outdoor, or even watching sports. I like video games and movies and stuff. The only things I was interested in on their list were movie nights and some hiking.

I hear ya. I've tried to think of myself as an asportual, but really it is just a reaction to a$$hole 'physical education' instructors. There are a lot of physical activities I'd like to try, but of what they offer hiking, camping, the houseboat thing, maybe going to a baseball game with a group of guys, fishing - though I've forgotten whatever I once knew about fishing - and the movies. Wouldn't mind a friendly environment to learn to play pool. The dinners would be nice. The site also mentions the arts. I could get into that.

What appeals to me is the comraderee. It's the only thing I really miss from the service. The idea of having that comraderee with a group of gay men really appeals to me. One of the most uncomfortable things about coming out was that suddenly all my relations with other men were sexualized whether we were headed to the bedroom or not. I fealt as if I lost more than I gained. It would be *nice* to meet a guy, but it would also be nice to have a group of friends who aren't coming on to me and who aren't afraid I'm coming on to them. Buddies. Guys to hang with.

Ben wrote:"All gay guys must stick together" is just unrealistic - because we're human.

For political issues, yes. Otherwise, I've never seen a more fragmented group.
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Postby Lesley R. Charles » Sat Jul 23, 2005 9:08 pm

I too am not totally out only because it is nobody's business. But when I am in guy mode, it is obvious that I am different, and there were a few times that I have been called ma'am and miss even when I am presenting like a guy. Well it doesn't help that I have a big butt and big hips, so I have to take steps like a woman, because it is more comfortable on my hips. Ben, you make some good points. Also, I like the avatar, you really come up with some great ones.
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Postby HoratioHellpop » Sun Jul 24, 2005 11:02 am

tigakub wrote:Let's say that there were characters like Winston in The Mexican, or Keith in Six Feet Under when I was growing up. I know that James Gandolfini isn't everyone's dish, but he is mine. These are well-rounded, complex characters, who though they have issues, aren't portrayed as comic relief. If I'd had such role models growing up, I might have told myself, hey, I want to be like them. And the fact that I can only think of two gay characters in all of pop media that I can identify with speaks volumes. And I'm sure that most every gay and lesbian can say the same thing whether they like Gandolfini or Rupaul.

If there are "straight-acting" or "butch" or "masculine" (or whatever) gay men who are still in the closet because they can't see beyond a gay stereotype, how much of that is their fault, and how much of that is society's fault for not providing a role model with which they ... we ... can identify?

The very FACT that there exists a web-site with the name "straight-acting" says to me that there IS a need for a discernible masculine gay identity. I don't feel I need to act straight. I just want it to be acknowledged that I'm a gay man who just feels most comfortable and natural being masculine. And I'm not saying that it's impossible to attain that on one's own. I'm just saying that it would have been nice to have had a little company growing up.

And if there is a formal gay group or gay sub-culture that can provide that, isn't that a worthy cause?


Isn't that one of the motivators behing GLAAD? To encourage Hollywood to accurately portray gays and lesbian on screen? To not portray us as eunuchs and clowns but as full fledged people with relationships, like Keith on Six Feet Under? You may want to look into them. They may already do some of what you're suggesting. http://www.glaad.org
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Postby Ben » Sun Jul 24, 2005 2:48 pm

Smitty wrote:I hear ya. I've tried to think of myself as an asportual, but really it is just a reaction to a$$hole 'physical education' instructors.

Oh yeah I absolutely I heard that!
Our gym teach in the 4-6 grade was an elitistic asshole who who only encouraged, and gave status to those students who he had the highest hopes on. Luckily that's changing in Sweden now. That kind of gym teachers is soon a thing of the past.

Smitty wrote:One of the most uncomfortable things about coming out was that suddenly all my relations with other men were sexualized whether we were headed to the bedroom or not. I fealt as if I lost more than I gained. It would be *nice* to meet a guy, but it would also be nice to have a group of friends who aren't coming on to me and who aren't afraid I'm coming on to them. Buddies. Guys to hang with.


Still not out but when I started chatting with other gay guys on YIM and/or MSN I was really careful not to talk about sex, joke about it or flirt. It's about self discipline. We don't have to fu** around with any gay guy just because we can. It's a result of lonelyness I guess, and I absolutely don't condemn guys who live that kind of lifestyle. Just be really careful and don't spread decease around.

Just an anecdote that I thought maybe could fit in this thread.
My city, Gothenburg happens to sport one of Scandinavias largest fair ground parks. I was there today with some friends (3 buds and their GFs), all str8. Infront of us walk these two burly mid 30s guys in their and their girlfriends. Then the guys suddenly take eachother's hands, pecks eachother a kiss, and continues on, still holding hands. The women didn't even know or notice them and soon they took another road. Everyone of my friends suddenly fell silent, glanced at eachother in disbelief. After we lost the the gay guys, everybody started talking, trying to come to terms of what they'd just seen...
"What the hell!?, they didn't look gay at all, that was so weird!... well I guess it would only make sense...etc etc"
I just sat there and smiled and enjoyed every moment of it. For just a second I felt like putting all cards on the table right then and there. "No it's not so weird, I'm one of em..."

Those guys were my heroes. I loved them with all my heart and I regret that I wasn't able to lock eyes with them and give them a smile and a nod like saying; "Right on!"

This felt like a mini victory. Those guys made 6 individuals have a serious reality check, and probably lots of other people too, just by holding hands. One of these days I'm gonna hold hands too, dammit! 8)
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Postby FuzzyScorpio » Mon Jul 25, 2005 12:24 am

Wow, cool story.

None of the guys in my local "group" are looking to jump each others' bones. Not far as I know.
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Postby toothync » Fri Jul 29, 2005 9:55 pm

Hey everyone! It's been a while.

I absolutely agree that it's something not recognised enough. In Sydney the gay community is very open. I've never felt villified for being masculine, never been told I'm "not gay enough." There's been the odd time when I've been refered to as "Butch" by some friends, which made me blink. I wasn't insulted, but I did feel a little objectified - as though the fact that I was "butch" was all they were focusing on. Mind you it was a drag queen who said it - so we're about as different in those terms as you can get. But I meet a lot of guys in the community who are just as comfortable being masculine.

I am out on the scene a bit, and I have no problem with the gay community as a whole - apathy, bitchiness, and head-in-the-sand mentailty aside. I have recently started dating a guy who is not really that masculine. To be honest he's pretty fem. At first that bothered me slightly, but then I realised that none of that crap mattered. We're just two people. Actually it's made me look again at what exactly "masculinity" is. What makes a man a man. But that's another topic.

On one level I'd cheer to see a Straight-acting float in the Mardi Gras Parade, but on another I kind of question whether we need another label. Before you know it there are stipulations on what qualifies you as Straightacting. While I really like the message and pretty much everything about the RegularGuys site, I too noticed the emphasis on certain aspects - ie sport. They freely admit that they're not for everyone, and this just happens to be their bent, but given a large scale community exposure I think a "Straighacting subculture" could become just as cliquey and rigidly defined as any other. At the very least there's a danger of it.

Not that any of that would change who I am, or the way I act, opr the pride I have in my self-acceptance. Still digesting the topic, will hopefully post again soon...

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Postby toothync » Fri Jul 29, 2005 9:59 pm

Phew! I'd forgotten how raunchy that avatar is.

Hmm... looks for alternative...
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Postby J » Fri Jul 29, 2005 11:00 pm

I just act how I want. So I'm a guy who's sexually attracted to other guys. I don't think it makes me part of some clique or an outcast. I don't feel like I owe the "community" anything, and I don't feel obligated to march proudly in a gay pride parade or to be "out and proud" because of who/what I am. I'm not saying anything derogatory about people who do participate in pride events (I don't mind going to them, but I wouldn't want to be the center of attention) or whatever, I'm just saying that I'm my own person, and that's more important to me than following the crowd because I'm "supposed to".

I know that my attitude and closeted/reclusive nature does nothing to help our cause, but when I finally admitted that one fact to myself, I was still the same person I was before (ie, not a Madonna freak or any of the stereotypes). I do support gay marriage and all the other equal rights that we deserve, and if somebody wants to get married or whatever, then he/he, she/she should have that right. I don't need it because I'm still me and always have been and always will be. I don't care if I don't fit in with the crowd. And if people think I'm selfish for considering my own interests instead of wearing pink and marching in a parade to show the world how proud I am with my sexual orientation (to me, sex is a very personal and private subject), then so be it. I don't have a problem with people who "fit the stereotype" so I don't feel like there's anything wrong with my personality and how bright (actually dim) my flame burns (or whatever the phrase is).

I also think there's way too much debate about the term "straight acting". It's just a vague description not meant to be taken in any real context. It's how we as individuals see it in our different points of view, so it shouldn't be offensive to anyone. We all come here and contribute our thoughts and opinions, and many of us have met in person. As much as in the gay community itself, we are all very different from each other. Personally I think that's a good thing.
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Postby J » Fri Jul 29, 2005 11:02 pm

I just act how I want. So I'm a guy who's sexually attracted to other guys. I don't think it makes me part of some clique or an outcast. I don't feel like I owe the "community" anything, and I don't feel obligated to march proudly in a gay pride parade or to be "out and proud" because of who/what I am. I'm not saying anything derogatory about people who do participate in pride events (I don't mind going to them, but I wouldn't want to be the center of attention) or whatever, I'm just saying that I'm my own person, and that's more important to me than following the crowd because I'm "supposed to".

I know that my attitude and closeted/reclusive nature does nothing to help our cause, but when I finally admitted that one fact to myself, I was still the same person I was before (ie, not a Madonna freak or any of the stereotypes). I do support gay marriage and all the other equal rights that we deserve, and if somebody wants to get married or whatever, then he/he, she/she should have that right. I don't need it because I'm still me and always have been and always will be. I don't care if I don't fit in with the crowd. And if people think I'm selfish for considering my own interests instead of wearing pink and marching in a parade to show the world how proud I am with my sexual orientation (to me, sex is a very personal and private subject), then so be it. I don't have a problem with people who "fit the stereotype" so I don't feel like there's anything wrong with my personality and how bright (actually dim) my flame burns (or whatever the phrase is).

I also think there's way too much debate about the term "straight acting". It's just a vague description not meant to be taken in any real context. It's how we as individuals see it in our different points of view, so it shouldn't be offensive to anyone. We all come here and contribute our thoughts and opinions, and many of us have met in person. As much as in the gay community itself, we are all very different from each other. Personally I think that's a good thing.
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Postby Beamer » Sat Jul 30, 2005 9:54 am

This is a tough one. I'm not sure there needs to be a discernable identity. If we need one, I don’t think it needs to be done with "logos, banners, and flag adorned floats at gay day parades". But there needs to be a better understanding in society that being gay does not mean that you have to fit in and adhere to the stereotypes. ANY of them.

I had very little exposure to anything gay while growing up in a rural/suburban area. And since there are no straight acting role models, I also didn't know anything like this existed. Being gay to me meant you were a guy who acted like a girl. It meant you probably wanted to live in San Francisco, etc. And things got worse for me in my late teens when the only gay member of my family was dying from AIDS. The impression was that was something that happened to "them".

Even today, most gay "role models" on TV are along the lines of Queer Eye for the Straight Guy or Jack from Will & Grace. I really think one of the first things that will come to mind when someone hears "gay" these days are the latest TV show personalities. That is the behavior/personality understood and perpetuated as "gay" by the media, and therefore is the impression left on society. There really is nothing for us, unless a baseball player (just a random example) came out to the world. And you can imagine the backlash. Something like that would do more harm than good, if a good looking, masculine and talented man said that he was attracted to other guys. The negative publicity would only further alienate the masculine or "straight acting" gay guy. But just as they exist in the military, they exist in professional baseball as well. People who realize that there are masculine gay guys understand this. People who don't would be shocked to find out that a gay guy could hit dozens of home runs in a season. But it has happened.
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Postby HoratioHellpop » Sat Jul 30, 2005 10:13 am

toothync wrote:I've missed this place!


Glad you're back toothync.
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Postby Beamer » Sat Jul 30, 2005 10:25 am

Don't change your avatar, toothy 8)
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Postby Ben » Tue Aug 02, 2005 5:25 am

Hmm feels like I've stumbled on this subject before on this board. :wink:
No matter what the topic is, it always comes back to this. Acceptance.

I agree with pretty much everything J says in his post. We should not have to feel obligated to anybody just because we fall in love with, and like to have sex with members of our own gender. There end the similarities between all of us.

Most (however not all) of what I've seen from events like Pride parade or Gay Marti Gras in pics on the web, in local media and downtown in my own city, has been just another party, nothing more nothing less. The small portions of the parade who want to make a serious political statement other than “We know how to party” hardly gets any publicity. At least that's the case here.

Not long ago I was pissed at that entire BS. I felt I wasn't represented. But then somebody told me something very important and that was, since I didn't wanna participate in it, how could I be represented? Later it dawned on me how little I really cared either way. I still am not gonna be in any parade. But I'm not complaining either. Let them have their parties. Let them express themselves in anyway they want. It's ok, just as long as it's also ok for me or anyone else to not prefer to be part of it.

For most of us, this homosexuality is only one part of our personalities. It's only a small part of my life, yet from time to time, less insightful circuit people have told me; "How can you say that...? It's who you are!!"

Then I like to respond:

"No... it's who YOU are. In my point of view, you have allowed your sexuality to take up too much room in your life and of your personality. But if it works for you, that's awesome. But this parade is not what I was looking for, now do you mind moving aside so I can get out from it and go home and be myself?" (The last sentence was metaphorical)

Maybe a discernable straight acting representation is needed. All the young guys who've just discovered their homosexuality, but who feel alien to the stereotypes, could be spared the years of "coming to terms".
It also makes it easier to find gay buds who you feel comfortable around.

Exactly how this str8acting representation should manifest itself is really up to each and every one of us. This website is one way, in my opinion. If you wanna wave banners and flags in the parades, feel free. :)
Last edited by Ben on Sat Aug 06, 2005 3:09 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby animismo » Tue Aug 02, 2005 11:04 pm

well said.

i voted yeah but wanna qualify it with this addition: i don't think there's a solid duality here with masc and fem, or straight-acting and "gay"-acting. i think behavior runs the whole spectrum, just like orientation. everyone's different, which is what rocks about being human.

that said, i happen to be more on the masc side, and the more masculine guys turn me on. the few times i've lusted for a feminine side i've sought out women.
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Postby dabonsteed » Sat Aug 06, 2005 10:55 am

tigakub wrote:
If there are "straight-acting" or "butch" or "masculine" (or whatever) gay men who are still in the closet because they can't see beyond a gay stereotype, how much of that is their fault, and how much of that is society's fault for not providing a role model with which they ... we ... can identify?


While role models are generally a good thing, I don't think it's "Hollywood" or "Society's" fault for not providing a masculine role model.

We keep getting back to this argument over and over again, but I'm pretty resolved on it.

If Straight-Acting/Masculine/Butch gay men do not Come Out, do not make themselves visible/heard and do not participate in both the gay and straight communities, they have no one but themselves to blame for a lack of "role models" available. Far too often the masculine/butch/SA guy is far too happy to pass for straight. Far too often he doesn't talk about his "personal life" at work, the gym, the family dinner table. The moment I or anyone else suggests more visibility, Coming Out, etc there are the immediate knee jerk reactions, "My private life is nobody's business" and "Nobody needs to know who I'm sleeping with." I'll tell you exactly who needs to know, the neighbors gay son who's in the front yard playing with his truck and wonders what other boys are like. Your nephew who just got kissed by his best friend behind the bleachers. The teenage runaway who always felt like he was just like all his friends except in one particular way. That's who needs to know you're gay. Unfortunately, those kids don't have "future fag" tattooed on their forehead, so you have to cast a wide net. You can be visible, and not be flaming. You can do a minor amount of advertising without having to have a whole marketing campaign.

I don't know why nobody ever sees this cycle:

Butch Kid figures out he's gay
Butch kid sees no out gay butch men
Butch kid hides in closet
Butch kid become butch man
Butch man comes out to very select group of adults, if anyone at all.
Butch man doesn't want anyone else to know.
Butch man dies successfully hiding his sexuality from everyone including....
Butch kid figures out he's gay

...and the cycle continues.

It's not hollywood's fault, it's not society's fault. It's our fault. Every chance you had to be out is another chance you had to change the world, even if it was only for one kid.
Think about it from his perspective. When you were a kid, if you had met a gay man just like you, hell even just seen one with his boyfriend at the movies----wouldn't that have changed everything for you?


On a slightly different note...

When I was younger, late teens I was so mad at my Dad that he didn't teach me to be a man. I was furious that he never forced me to do more masculine things, that my family never drop-kicked me into some type of little league or something so I could've "learned to be a man" and then one day, when I stopped being angry about all kinds of things I realized that he did. So did Mom. They taught my brother and I how to be good people. Which is essentially what a man should be. A good person.
"this is your life, are you who you want to be?"
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Postby toothync » Tue Aug 09, 2005 3:39 am

Well, I was thinking about UPDATING the avatar - I've been working out a lot...

Anyway back on topic. I agree with dabonsteed.

I'm completely out. Anyone who asks hears the truth, and if someone challenges me I'll challenge them. I disagree that the only thing we have in common is the fact that we like men and are not effeminate. For me "Pride" is about sharing a common experience. We are all people who have, at some point in our lives, had to face a shadow and conquer it. Not just straight acting gay guys, but the whole "gay community" is made up of people who have faced the same shadow.

As I said I'm straightacting, I'm completely out, and I do go party every now and then, and when I do I actually feel part of something greater than myself. There is enormous strength is knowing who you are and being able to stand alone, but there is an equal amount of personal strength to be found in sharing a common experience.

In my opinion sitting by while someone badmouths fags is the same as a black man sitting by while a white guy badmouths "niggers" - to believe that it does not impact personally on you is indicative of more self-denial. And if you are not denying a part of yourself, you are denying yourself a part of something.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to attack anyone's personal choices, I'm trying to argue my side. I just see so much more to be gained from being a part of something. As an out masculine gay man in the community I don't feel any pressure whatsoever to change myself. I used to perceive a lot of pressure, but it was due to ignorance and inexperience on my part.

I don't feel there has to be a subset for this or a subset for that. In the gay community in Sydney at least, people are much more accepting. There's a heap of superficiality, but that's not endemic to the gay party population.

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