Straight Guys Get Trained in Acting Straight

Discussion on what it means to be straight acting, whether it's good, bad or indifferent.

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Impact of Beliefs

Postby Learning » Thu Jun 10, 2010 8:03 pm

butch wrote:Why do I have the beliefs I do? I'm not certain...
I've just never been "one of the crowd" in my life so I can't really give that good an assessment why I am the way I am.
I like hierarchies but believe they must be tempered by some kind of separate justice and evaluation means. I don't believe in equality for all but believe in laws that protect the weak and stupid. I believe in competition and evolution.


Basic assumptions are hard to identify. Assumptions are tied to the way we do things. But you've shown that those beliefs affect how you feel about issues and what you're willing to do. Beliefs about competition and hierarchies go with wanting to be successful, to be on top, and to be independent. These all contribute to a "straight acting" style.

While at the Adirondak Park history center, I found out that a lot of the lumberjacks who were there about 100 years ago were atheists. In spite of the slogans saying, "Real men love Jesus," I think rugged men are still expected to be rational and practical and not to rely on religion. How did you get away from religion?

That must be really gratifying to see the interest that people have in your photography. Probably a lot of guys wish they had been behind the camera with you. Still, it seems like you took some risks in doing the pictures. What did you tell yourself about the potential hostility that could come from doing male nude pictures? What boosted your confidence?
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Re: Straight Guys Get Trained in Acting Straight

Postby butch » Fri Jun 11, 2010 2:43 am

Learning wrote:
butch wrote:Why do I have the beliefs I do? I'm not certain...
I've just never been "one of the crowd" in my life so I can't really give that good an assessment why I am the way I am.
I like hierarchies but believe they must be tempered by some kind of separate justice and evaluation means. I don't believe in equality for all but believe in laws that protect the weak and stupid. I believe in competition and evolution.



While at the Adirondak Park history center, I found out that a lot of the lumberjacks who were there about 100 years ago were atheists. In spite of the slogans saying, "Real men love Jesus," I think rugged men are still expected to be rational and practical and not to rely on religion. How did you get away from religion?


Re: Religion... I think I started drifting away from religion in my teens. I was from a church going family. I was an alter boy and sang in the church choir in my early teens. But I had discovered masturbation which I thought was a sin. I didn't stop beating the meat but felt deserted by God. I think when I started to come out, in my early 20's (I still had no idea what "gay" was) I started to feel betrayed by religion and "God". After a while I just stopped worrying about it and figured things will work out.

By the time I left the Navy, at age 24 (I joined the permanent forces at age 18), I was coming out and just didn't worry about the church anymore but it was the beginning of the hippy era and everyone seemed to be into alternate spiritual searches and I felt there might be something to it. Never believed in astrology, or I Ching, or Tarrot. Thought that was all superstitious nonsense but I did read most of Carlos Castenada's books and wondered if there might be some kind of other worldly something or other. I also discovered the Urantia Book which quite fascinated me by its complexity. I started reading it and that took a long time to get through... a couple of years.

I kept looking for some error of fact and it took a long time to find it. It is the Lucifer problem about which I've made a video. There is no Lucifer in the Bible... it's an error in translation begun with the King James Bible. It has been corrected in the RSV (revised standard version) Bible. But Lucifer is a big deal in the Urantia Book. So I knew, finally, that the book was a fraud.

Also the Urantia Book said the Ka'aba in Mecca is a relic of Islam. That is an actual error. The Ka'aba predates Islam and, in fact, the Prophet grew up there. He was an orphan raised by his uncle... the keeper of the Ka'aba.

Anyhow, after finally knowing, beyond any doubt that the Urantia Book was a fraud I didn't much think about religion until I started writing my book. Doing that made me look more carefully at the cosmos as a whole, and the meaning of the infinite and its limitations. I realized that no knowledgeable person would believe in the existence of a creator if, for no other reason, there isn't a shred of logic in it. I came to the conclusion there could never be such a thing as a "God" for no other reason that one would need to find a creator for the "God" itself. So I was finally able to break any bonds of fear I may have held regarding "God" and also came to understand that this life is all there is, for me, as a being. And if there is anything other than what seems to be, I'm more than certain the universe will unfold as it should... with me, or without me.

That must be really gratifying to see the interest that people have in your photography. Probably a lot of guys wish they had been behind the camera with you. Still, it seems like you took some risks in doing the pictures. What did you tell yourself about the potential hostility that could come from doing male nude pictures? What boosted your confidence?


My taste is men is not typical of the average gay man. The kind of guy I like isn't the type of guy the average gay man seems interested in so I have never shot for a "gay" market. I shoot for me... what I like. I don't give a damn what others like, it's not my problem and I wasn't shooting to make money. I wanted to be known as a really good photographer technically. These days there are some very talented photographers shooting male nudes, but in my early days that wasn't the case. Early male nude photography (50's to mid 80's) needed only for the guy to be nude. Technical considerations didn't matter and many who did the photos weren't very good photographers.

I wanted to do photography and be different. Naked men seemed really appealing. I didn't know if I would ever find a market, and mostly haven't. I wasn't interested in porno. I wanted to make photos that fell into the realm of "art" whatever that might be. I was inspired by a number of photographers from the past. And then Robert Mapplethorpe came along and I thought it might even become respectable.

Having studied Robert's life, I now understand that no one would ever have heard of him if he hadn't met his millionaire boyfriend who bought him a loft and introduced him to the "right" people. His photos have value only because he became elevated into the New York art scene and became a "somebody". That's what expensive art is really about... the signature. It can be crap but if the artist is "somebody" the art is a kind of souvenir of the artist and acquires value. I'm not saying there isn't a lot of really good art out there worth a lot of money, but some art has more to do with the artist's fame than the quality of the art itself.

Andy Warhol is an example. He was a very good artist and produced some quite nice pieces but he also churned out a lot of bland art. In fact, that was what he was all about and he went so far as to not even produce much of the art himself. It was made by assistants at his aptly named "Factory" and Andy did nothing more than sign it. That was, in fact, the whole point of his art statement. Art can be anything, including a soup can. Anyone can make art. Anyone can, and likely will, be famous for 15 minutes.

I didn't care if I had a market nor audience. I did photography for myself and hoped that it might some day gain some respect and admiration. I absolutely never worried even a little bit about hostility. I haven't given a crap what people think for years and years and years. I do what I do for me. Humans are just too dumb and stupid to worry about.

If I seem arrogant, I am. That's just the way I am. I didn't even start to get serious about photography until I was in my early 30's, though I was taking photos since I was 7 years old. I had a single lens reflex camera in 1963 when I was still a cadet in the Navy. Such cameras were quite exotic at the time and only very serious amateurs and professionals owned that kind of camera. By today's standards they were very expensive.

Originally I took photos of nude men to have reference material for painting. I had planned to paint male nudes but came to realize there was little to no market for such paintings. But as I learned more about the technical side of photography I wanted to make more technically competent photographs... commercial photography, studio quality photos. If nothing else, shooting male nudes gave me reason to become quite serious about photography and learn all I could about developing, printing and eventually commercial quality lighting techniques.

After I left the Navy I started and ran a clothing store in Halifax. I established what, today, would be pretty common but, in those days a "fashion store for men" was almost unheard of. I modeled myself after the Canadian store "Le Chateau" which was ,itself, a single store in Montreal in those days. In fact, the Chateau owners were very helpful to me. I had naively thought I could just ask them to become a franchise of them. They laughed but liked me and, because I was in Halifax and no threat to them in Montreal, introduced me to some important people in the clothing manufacturing business in Montreal. I wouldn't have made it without their help. But then I met my first boyfriend who had just graduated from university and was off to England to "come out" and escape his upper middle class and well known family. I pretty much gave away my store and chased him to England where we lived for a while until our money ran out when we returned to Canada and eventually moved to Vancouver where we had both intended to go to art school.

Hope that answered the questions.
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The Power in Not Caring

Postby Learning » Fri Jun 11, 2010 11:59 am

butch wrote:I didn't care if I had a market nor audience. I did photography for myself and hoped that it might some day gain some respect and admiration. I absolutely never worried even a little bit about hostility. I haven't given a crap what people think for years and years and years. I do what I do for me. Humans are just too dumb and stupid to worry about.

If I seem arrogant, I am. That's just the way I am.

Hope that answered the questions.


Sure. You've explained a lot, Butch. You've put real world examples into this discussion of ways guys are taught "straight acting" style. The idea of not being concerned about reactions from other people seems to be a frequent theme. To think that people who don't support you are mistaken would be liberating. Do you have more you want to add about what helped you not care?

Probably most straight guys don't set out to act "straight." They probably set out to "be a man." What advice would you give straight guys about what it takes to "be a man"?
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Re: Straight Guys Get Trained in Acting Straight

Postby butch » Fri Jun 11, 2010 2:20 pm

Probably most straight guys don't set out to act "straight." They probably set out to "be a man." What advice would you give straight guys about what it takes to "be a man"?


I don't like to assume. It's one of my rules for living: "No Assuming!"

What, exactly, is "a man"? By what, or who's, definition?

Is a biological woman a "man" because she pilots a jet fighter?

But I'm one who will speculate from time to time. I speculate our personalities are a combination of influences. Most likely there are some pre-disposing genetic things going on... just like there are a wide variety of "sexes" from macho male to seductive female, there are a lot of sexual "types". So it is, I speculate, that there are a lot of types that have personalities that are strongly influenced by genetic make-up.

I speculate that family and community are a big influence. A dominating mother/father or other family member or perhaps a teacher or mentor. Community would make a difference. I moved around so much I was exposed to a wide variety of kids and community.

The point is, we are molded and formed. We are born like a piece of clay to be molded by life. My dad was pretty domineering but a back woods guy with little education. He was inventive, a handyman kind of guy and quite independent. I was often embarrassed by his lack of education but he could fix anything, particularly cars. We didn't get along but I speculate he was a big influence on me. You wouldn't want to fight him... he was a really tough kind of guy.

There is probably too much importance attached to "straight acting" or "gay acting". I feel it's a bit related to our desire to sterotype everything and put things in neat little holes. Many, many straight guys come off as gay-acting. Think about the brothers on "Frasier" and "Two and a half men". Each set of brothers has one who seems to act in the way we expect gay men to act yet they are quite heterosexual.

I feel it's a lot more complicated than that. Life seems to have leaders and folowers and the followers seem to be the majority. Likely that's quite normal.

When I was in the Navy I had senior officers of different types. The executive officer of one of the submarines upon which I served was, to me, incompetent. I became aware at an early age that, in my eyes, just because someone was "senior" to me didn't mean they were more competent. And then I had a couple of different captains of both ships and submarines who were so very competent and completely in charge... kind of like father role models. As a young man, I wanted to be like them.

I speculate that most aren't overly conscious of their "type". I speculate that it's the leader types who self examine themselves and seek to change or improve themselves. They are the future leaders. Then again, sometimes the completely incompetent get to be in charge for a variety of reasons... their father owns the company, or they are good at deceiving their superiors and end up in charge. I learned, early on, that authority figures aren't always competent.

We humans are too quick to judge people, for the most part... methinks. First impressions are a big deal and, as they say, "you don't get a second chance to make a first impression".

If one is self confident, ones outer "type" should not be of great importance (except, perhaps, if seeking a particular job or office where appearance is really important). For instance, I've seen and met some drag queens who are tough as nails, very very self-confident and could likely beat the crap out of some tough guys.

It's unfortunate we humans place so much importance on our perceived feelings about people. In politics, perception is pretty much everything. An idiot can rise to power because of strong charisma.

We seem to expect a man "to be a man" because our long struggle for survival has made the man the defender and the provider while women tended the camp and looked after the children.

Straight guys are under a lot of pressure to act strong and be like the other guys. Gay men seem to care a lot less.

It likely starts in the playground. The straight men compete and the shy or gay types retreat to the edges of the playground and don't participate in the things boys do.

Straight boys are essentially forced into becoming tougher by the boys with whom they associate at a young age.

That's my speculation. I don't think there is anything other than community and family shaping our character except for genetic make-up. We become what we do, almost by accident. Straight guys put a lot of pressure on their peers to "be a man" and everyone wants to belong so one must conform or become an outcast. I became an outcast almost by accident and that likely made me stronger. For others, it might go the opposite way. I feel the strongest influence on me was my time in the Navy.

The only advice I can give is to believe in yourself. You have every right everyone else has if you really want it.
Educate yourself in your chosen field and the self confidence will come naturally because YOU will know that you know your stuff. You MUST believe in you. You MUST believe in your own superiority. You MUST believe you can win. You MUST believe it's owed to you. You must be prepared to give whatever it takes. If you have to work harder, so be it. If you have to work longer, so be it. My mother used to say "there is no royal road to learning". If you come to the battle of life well prepared by education and practice the confidence will come naturally. Winning small battles will help give you confidence to take on bigger battles.

How do you get to Carnegie Hall? Practice, practice, practice... and practice some more!

Life can require allies. Learn how to influence and control people. (Dale Carnegie... "How to Win Friends and Influence People", the book, is a really good start).
"You know it's going to be bad, but you just can't prepare yourself" ... Homer Simpson
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Re: Straight Guys Get Trained in Acting Straight

Postby Learning » Sat Jun 12, 2010 6:46 am

butch wrote:
Straight guys are under a lot of pressure to act strong and be like the other guys. Gay men seem to care a lot less.



Good point, Butch. I was noticing the other day that some senior lacrosse players were giving one of the freshman players a hard time. The seniors were pressuring the freshman to tell others that he would be the goalie on the team next year even though one of the older, more experienced guys would probably be goalie. The guys on the team were also giving each other goodbye hugs but making sure that they were stiff, back-patting hugs. This all took place within five minutes. A lifetime of social pressure and role modeling would have some impact. Maybe some of the expectations have changed. What things do you remember as being part of "man law"?




butch wrote:The only advice I can give is to believe in yourself. You have every right everyone else has if you really want it.
Educate yourself in your chosen field and the self confidence will come naturally because YOU will know that you know your stuff. You MUST believe in you. You MUST believe in your own superiority. You MUST believe you can win. You MUST believe it's owed to you. You must be prepared to give whatever it takes. If you have to work harder, so be it. If you have to work longer, so be it. My mother used to say "there is no royal road to learning". If you come to the battle of life well prepared by education and practice the confidence will come naturally. Winning small battles will help give you confidence to take on bigger battles.

How do you get to Carnegie Hall? Practice, practice, practice... and practice some more!

Life can require allies. Learn how to influence and control people. (Dale Carnegie... "How to Win Friends and Influence People", the book, is a really good start).


That's great advice about preparation. These look like core beliefs of a person who is likely to take charge. When people say, "believe in yourself," is that a summary way of saying to believe in your superiority, your capability, and your rights or does "believe in yourself" mean something more?
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Re: Straight Guys Get Trained in Acting Straight

Postby butch » Sun Jun 13, 2010 12:12 am

That's great advice about preparation. These look like core beliefs of a person who is likely to take charge. When people say, "believe in yourself," is that a summary way of saying to believe in your superiority, your capability, and your rights or does "believe in yourself" mean something more?


I guess I'm wimping out, or taking the easy road by saying "believe in yourself" since it gets said all the time by various mentors. It is good advice but doesn't really tell you what to do, nor how. Let me try harder to explain.

It's really, IMO, about self confidence I guess. We are all nervous standing on the stage of life that our performance may not be up to what the audience expects. You shouldn't care. You should be doing the performance for you. You want to please your own expectations for yourself and, if you don't, only you will know. The audience will not likely be any the wiser and, if you have prepared yourself by study and practice, you will likely be a good performer in the eyes of those who can't do what you do, anyways.

And that doesn't really cover it entirely either. I live by a set of rules I'll call "rules for Warriors" which are a set of rules from First Nations peoples... Native American culture.

One rule says it is not important if you win or lose a battle. What is important is that you engaged in the battle and gave it your all. Winning of losing doesn't matter, it's the act of being "impeccable" that is important. Or simply trying and trying to do your best. That is all that matters. People will respect you for trying and giving your all.

You will know if you are up to snuff. And that's all that matters, in the end. You pleasing you. Because you really shouldn't give a damn what others think... they're idiots. They're your puppets. Don't let that little secret out. Tell them how much you appreciate them... after all, they will be stroking your ego, or not. And that's all you care about, is you. And telling people you appreciate them will bring them to your side and favour. They need not know you are manipulating them... they're idiots, and the ones that aren't idiots will make great allies (or enemies).

You will have to learn how to convert the enemies into friends... do that by finding something you honestly appreciate or like about them and praise them for it. Tell them what you admire in them. Turn your enemies into allies... you need some smart people to help you.

Sounds selfish, I guess. And it is. You are the centre of your universe. It doesn't mean you shouldn't be nice to people nor care for those you love and be a good member of the community. In fact, you should be the example the rest of the community follow. Your good deeds and works will speak for themselves.

And you DO believe in your own superiority. You should know your limits so you will also be smart enough to live within them and make allies of those who can do what you can't. There is no shame in asking for assistance and using expert help.

What things do you remember as being part of "man law"?


I have a problem with the concept of "man law" and even the idea of "being a man". It seems rather misogynistic in this day and age. We should be moving in the direction of recognizing an individual for their worth regardless of sex, sexual preference, colour of skin, or nationality... even religion.

The idea of promoting "being a man" does not sit well with me. We should be promoting the idea of self achievement and worth without regard to sex. Trying to uphold old ideas about manhood yadda yadda is for the Troglodytes, methinks. In any case, if you don't give a crap about what others think, who cares if they don't think you're "man" enough. Why would you care?

Social niceties are different from place to place. If you practice any... whatever they may be, it's just doing what your local culture does... whatever it may be. There is no reason you should not participate in the little friendly gestures that are "normal" for the group and those will vary from place to place and time to time. If you were among a group of pygmies you would be polite and adopt their social practices. Or if you were in Saudi Arabia you would politely follow their customs. It's just polite and wise to do.

The very idea of "man law" will vary from culture to culture and country to country. In India and Pakistan men will hug each other, even kiss each other while women are held in contempt and even distain.

So, for me personally, I don't really think about such things and would not be a good source of advice regarding such issues. I respect anyone who shows me they have knowledge or skills while respecting others. I don't care whether they be male, or female, or something in between or even outside any kind of sexual identity we might label a person.
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"Rules for Warriors"

Postby Learning » Sun Jun 13, 2010 5:14 am

butch wrote:And that doesn't really cover it entirely either. I live by a set of rules I'll call "rules for Warriors" which are a set of rules from First Nations peoples... Native American culture.

One rule says it is not important if you win or lose a battle. What is important is that you engaged in the battle and gave it your all. Winning of losing doesn't matter, it's the act of being "impeccable" that is important. Or simply trying and trying to do your best. That is all that matters. People will respect you for trying and giving your all.



Thank you for the clarifications. Having your own code and set of principles would give you a lot of independence and a way of evaluating your performance. Could you explain more about the "rules for Warriors"?
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Re: Straight Guys Get Trained in Acting Straight

Postby butch » Sun Jun 13, 2010 12:31 pm

Thank you for the clarifications. Having your own code and set of principles would give you a lot of independence and a way of evaluating your performance. Could you explain more about the "rules for Warriors"?


My sister Jennifer has been taking native American Shamanic studies for years and years. She went to a retreat quite a few years ago. She was aware of my book... in the writing stages, my interest in Don Juan and Carlos Castenada and Warrior culture. She sent me one of the study handouts which was the teachings for Warriors. Technically, it was not meant for release to the public, but I don't much pay attention to rules.

I don't want to write them out, but if you are interested, I have them in the addendum of my book, The Shape of God (Secrets, Tales and Legends of the Dawn Warriors), and you can read the teachings for Warriors here...

http://TheShapeOfGod.com/page289.html

You may download the entire (PDF) version of the book for free, or read it for free at Google Books (Search for "The Shape of God").

:D
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Rules for Warriors: Learning to Try

Postby Learning » Mon Jun 14, 2010 8:19 am

butch wrote:
I don't want to write them out, but if you are interested, I have them in the addendum of my book, The Shape of God (Secrets, Tales and Legends of the Dawn Warriors), and you can read the teachings for Warriors here...

http://TheShapeOfGod.com/page289.html

You may download the entire (PDF) version of the book for free, or read it for free at Google Books (Search for "The Shape of God").

:D


The issues addressed in these rules for warriors seem universal because all living things face challenges. In the face of those challenges, the rules offer encouragement to overcome what Martin Seligman called "learned helplessness." Learned helplessness happens when a person or animal fails and then gives up. But the rules seem to say that someone should try new things and keep making an effort. Many stories of courageous living come from people who've tried new things and won.

butch wrote:My sister Jennifer has been taking native American Shamanic studies for years and years. She went to a retreat quite a few years ago. She was aware of my book... in the writing stages, my interest in Don Juan and Carlos Castenada and Warrior culture.
:D


Don Juan and Carlos Castenada are new to me, but it seems that in other cultures, guys are taught rules and stories about courageous living. Were there other things Castenada said that you found useful?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Teachi ... _Knowledge
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Re: Straight Guys Get Trained in Acting Straight

Postby butch » Mon Jun 14, 2010 9:30 am

Don Juan and Carlos Casteneda are new to me, but it seems that in other cultures, guys are taught rules and stories about courageous living. Were there other things Casteneda said that you found useful?


When I was much younger, in 1970, I arrived in Vancouver with my boyfriend. It was a cultural shock unlike anything I had ever experienced. We lived at hippie central (Burrard and 4th Ave). It would be like moving to Haight Ashbury on a smaller scale.

Long haired hippies everywhere and neat shops selling beads, restaurants serving organic foods and everyone, everywhere saying "far out" in every sentence out of their mouths. Lots of acid and pot in my 'hood. And discovering a nude beach, too. And the "be in" culture... large, very large groups of long hairs gathering in the park (we're talking hundreds of people here) smoking pot and beating drums and just "being".

My sister was reading Carlos Casteneda ( A Separate Reality) and she exposed me to the Urantia Book at the same time... a friend of hers who spent part of the year on ice flows monitoring seals had left his bag at her place and she knew he was into the Urantia Book and I had tripped out a few days earlier on acid and, apparently, seemed to be in a trance talking about many very strange things. I only recall going back in time, "feeling and seeing the primal heart beat of reality"... I can't describe it any other way and I was there for only a few moments, then zooming rapidly forward through time, feeling the entire history of the Earth in a momentary flash, when I "came to" again. This seemed to all happen in only a few minutes but my boyfriend and sister said I babbled on for over an hour about things that made no sense whatsoever.

I still don't know what to make of the writings of Carlos who became quite famous and wealthy writing about his experiences with Don Juan, a Yaqui "Indian". In time I understood that Don Juan may have been putting Carlos into hypnotic trances to induce the "experiences" he had. I know how to hypnotize people and have studied the subject of hypnotism. The thing I took away from the many books was this:

Death is always present with you. Death sits on the mat with you and is constantly trying to trick you into looking into its eyes... and then you are dead. Or as Don Juan also said... death sits upon your left shoulder constantly waiting to trick you. You must live your live impeccably (immaculately) so that when death finally tricks you into looking at it, you will leave this world with honour and impeccability... as a Warrior. You are on this planet to learn to be a higher kind of spirit. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlos_Castaneda)

Don Juan explained that we were "luminous beings" and, for some, we are on an eternal struggle for survival... that this life is little more than a short stay on the quest for power (orende). It is a quest for knowledge and only the strong will survive the test of time. To survive one must live life as a Warrior fighting for survival through the tests of time and eternity for only the strong will survive this quest.

The things most humans find interest in are of little consequence or importance and should not distract you from your quest for power (orende). Your quest is to live among equals who share your thirst for knowledge and power (orende).

When I arrived in Vancouver I was quite overwhelmed by the number of people who had such radical thoughts about pretty much everything. It was a huge cultural shock the likes of which I've not seen since. It was a magical time in history with so many young people throwing aside all the norms of the past and seeking a new way of living... or so it seemed at the time. It was also the time of the beginning of "gay liberation". The Stonewall riots had happened just the year before. I should mention... since this thread seems to be about "manhood" and "teaching straight acting", that the gay liberation movement was begun by drag queens, not the "butch" gay men. Most all historians agree the gay liberation movement began at the Stonewall Inn or what is commonly called the "Stonewall Riots" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stonewall_riots).

The Warrior Teachings to which I have referred (http://TheShapeOfGod.com/page289.html) are about learning to actually shift one's spiritual being to a higher level of reality... to completely change one's being into a new person (assemblage point). It implies that the body you see... as you, is an illusion and when you shift your assemblage point you will be a completely different being, even if the physical appearance seems to be the same. The bodies and reality we see are a complete illusion but we are trapped in our human form to undergo lessons and it is necessary to do it this way. We have no control over being here. Learning is a forced condition you must experience over and over and over again until you learn to shift your assemblage point to the level where you simply vanish from Earth or make the transition through natural death.

I find it useful to read the teachings... also read right through to the strategies of a Warrior. I find them very helpful (http://TheShapeOfGod.com/page291.html).
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The 60s and Men

Postby Learning » Mon Jun 14, 2010 12:59 pm

The 60s do sound like a far out time even in Vancouver. The 60s also saw a strengthening of women's liberation and the possibilities of "sensitive" men. The chance for men to use a fully human range of behaviors rather than limiting themselves to stereotypical male behaviors probably helped make room for metrosexuals and gay people now.
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Re: Pressures of Straight Acting

Postby Learning » Mon Jun 14, 2010 1:13 pm

]
butch wrote: I should mention... since this thread seems to be about "manhood" and "teaching straight acting", that the gay liberation movement was begun by drag queens, not the "butch" gay men. Most all historians agree the gay liberation movement began at the Stonewall Inn or what is commonly called the "Stonewall Riots" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stonewall_riots).


In the United States, drag queens did give gay liberation a passionate kick. The Stonewall Riots made a sensation and showed that wearing a dress does not stop someone from exercising power. Power and personal style are more complicated than stereotypes would suggest. Still, I hate to see historians overlook the thoughtful work of pioneers like Magnus Hirschfeld.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnus_Hirschfeld

In several posts, you've mentioned things about respecting people's differences. Would you like to comment on the ways that pressures to be "straight acting" are misguided or hurtful? Do straight guys do themselves a disservice by trying to act "straight"? Is there any benefit to gay people in knowing how to do "straight acting"? Is there a benefit to transgendered people wanting to present themselves as male to know how to pass as male? These things get complicated, but you seem to enjoy explaining.


butch wrote:I find it useful to read the teachings... also read right through to the strategies of a Warrior. I find them very helpful (http://TheShapeOfGod.com/page291.html).


Yes, the strategies of a Warrior make a good summary of the values recommended for Warriors. It really is an adaptive, courageous approach.
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Re: Straight Guys Get Trained in Acting Straight

Postby butch » Mon Jun 14, 2010 1:30 pm

In several posts, you've mentioned things about respecting people's differences. Would you like to comment on the ways that pressures to be "straight acting" are misguided or hurtful? Do straight guys do themselves a disservice by trying to act "straight"? Is there any benefit to gay people in knowing how to do "straight acting"? Is there a benefit to transgendered people wanting to present themselves as male to know how to pass as male? These things get complicated, but you seem to enjoy explaining.


IMO it is the kind of social pressures that are put upon men to be "straight acting" which lead to violence and homophobia in general. I note that in today's Vancouver news (on TV) that a recent survey notes that while discrimination in Canada, against skin colour, relgion etc., seems to be at the same levels as a couple of years ago that the violent attacks on gay men has more than doubled. Cities with the most violence against gay men (it's called a hate crime here and there are laws against it) are Hamilton and Vancouver. There have been some really violent attacks here in Vancouver (one man was in a coma and another was beaten to death), the police seem reluctant to lay hate crime charges... perhaps because it is difficult to actually prove in a court of law, while assault is not difficult to prove.

IMO the concept of "staight acting" is rooted in ignorance and misguided ideas about manhood and not validated by the actions of the majority of males. The "straight acting" idea is a mindset of certain groups of males... sports teams in particular, and certain ethnic, racial, and religious groups. Of note, the most frequent offenders (gay bashers) in Vancouver seem to be Sikhs who, as part of the greater community, are relatively new to Vancouver. Vancouver's main ethnic populations are Chinese, filipino, Italian, Portuguese and a mish-mash of various Europeans and quite a few Australians, it seems. Asians now represent nearly 50% of the local population... so much so that local bank machines offer Chinese language ability. I've noted that, among young people (under 25) there is a very large group that now seem to practice inter-racial dating. It seems white boys are strongly attracted to Asian girls here. It is becoming quite a common sight to see a white boy with an Asian girl.

It may be my imagination but I detect a kind of conforming behaviour among gay men now... more and more gay men seem to act and dress the same... in a (dare I say it?) "gay" style of behaviour. I see less and less "types" among gay men now. However, I also note that the average age of the gay male in Vancouver seems to be mid 40's now and there seems to be fewer and fewer younger gay males. I expect this is the "baby boom" effect. I have no desire, of any kind, to visit gay bars anymore. Not because I seldom drink, but I have no interest in the average clientele "types" as regards "behaviour" (too, too, too gay for me) and age. I get along better with, and am attracted to, younger men.

I believe I've already stated that I'm not at all comfortable with the concept of "straight acting" and strongly discourage it among the GLBT community and the hetero community as well... i.e. I don't like the idea of trying to "act" a certain way... trying to be something one is not. It is a concept born of ignorance and stupidity. Ironically, however, I'm not attracted to men who are effeminate. You could be Adonis personified, but would leave me cold if effeminate in nature. Ironic, isn't it? The only explanation I can provide is that I have absolutely no attraction to women. None... nadda.

People should just be themselves and stop trying to live up to some imagined stereotype. Masculinity can embrace all kinds of types just as femininity can embrace a wide variety of types. We have butch women and effeminate men and the other extremes too. It's not a bad thing. Variety is to be appreciated and welcomed. Those who try to conform to a "type" have emotional issues they need to deal with. They aren't whole persons but people with a problem... they are emotionally sick. People who try to be someone else will never, ever, find themselves. It may be a good indication they are co-dependent personalities and that is a kind of emotional disorder... they are emotionally sick.

But, on a final note... perhaps the term "straightacting" is a poorly defined word. Does it mean showing/faking attraction only to the opposite sex or does it mean being "masculine" in appearance and action? I'm attracted to "non-effeminate" men who show strength and individuality. That rules out many so-called "straight acting men" who, though they may be sexually heterosexual, are just plain wimps to me and to whom I'm less attracted. My long term boyfriend was, however, not overtly masculine and definitely not a physically strong person. In him it was his physical beauty, his thin build, his intelligence and gentle manner. It was more of a "whole" package than one particular trait. Looks mean a lot to me ( I'm shallow, I admit it). Ya gots to have a look that I like and what I like is very, very rare. And you must be smart. You must have intelligence. And overly aggressive males are a turn off too... usually a sign of stupidity.

Personality, alone, would not win me over as a boyfriend. You would have to have a package deal on the go. Looks might get you a trial run in bed, but you need a lot more than that... for me. I like a creative person combined with intelligence. Physically, long legs, no fat, and wide shoulders turn me on. "Swishy" or effeminate men wouldn't get even a glance.
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Re: Straight Guys Get Trained in Acting Straight

Postby butch » Mon Jun 14, 2010 10:02 pm

In the United States, drag queens did give gay liberation a passionate kick. The Stonewall Riots made a sensation and showed that wearing a dress does not stop someone from exercising power. Power and personal style are more complicated than stereotypes would suggest. Still, I hate to see historians overlook the thoughtful work of pioneers like Magnus Hirschfeld.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnus_Hirschfeld


Thanks for the info... something new to me.

The previous post was... rambling wasn't it? I've been in a great deal of pain today and I think I overdosed on painkillers to boot... they didn't work and I became quite ill feeling. Went to the doctor this afternoon. He gave me a prescription for some medicine it turns out I'm can't tolerate. I shouldn't write in the morning before my brain checks in

You've caused me to think a lot about the whole meaning of "straight-acting" which makes me realize it's a complicated issue if, for no other reason, than the fact that there is no standard male with which to compare types. I take the word to imply presenting the appearance of being heterosexual and not demonstrating effeminate mannerisms.

I suppose I first came to this site hoping to find guys who didn't fit the "gay" stereotypical mold. But it turns out to be more complicated than that. Also I note that many visit but few comment or post which leads me to suspect this board is a kind of information source rather than a place to exchange ideas. But what do I know? We shouldn't try so hard to have a "gay" identity any more than hetero males should behave in a certain way. It would make the whole concept of "straight acting" redundant. I'm really much too reclusive an individual, socially, to understand social norms. I really don't give a damn how others behave and don't give a crap what people think of me either in spite of my opinionated nature.
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Meaning and Value of "Straight Acting"

Postby Learning » Tue Jun 15, 2010 7:13 am

butch wrote:IMO it is the kind of social pressures that are put upon men to be "straight acting" which lead to violence and homophobia in general... Ironically, however, I'm not attracted to men who are effeminate. You could be Adonis personified, but would leave me cold if effeminate in nature. Ironic, isn't it? The only explanation I can provide is that I have absolutely no attraction to women. None... nadda.


Thank you for your honesty. You've identified a dilemma that a number of us run into. On the one hand, it's troubling that people would engage in homophobic, sissyphobic violence. On the other hand, we've all got our personal tastes and interests.

A lot of gay personal ads ask for "straight acting" guys. It's hard to know for sure what someone else means by "straight acting," but I think it means a guy who people would not assume is gay because he moves and speaks with confidence and strength.

Once when I was at a gay bar, I saw a guy wearing a sweat shirt supporting a lacrosse team. When I went to talk with the guy, he told me in a voice that sounded like Mickey Mouse that he did not play for that team or go to that school. I quickly lost interest.

Maybe you've had similar experiences. What things do guys do that impress you as masculine but not overly aggressive?



butch wrote:It may be my imagination but I detect a kind of conforming behaviour among gay men now... more and more gay men seem to act and dress the same... in a (dare I say it?) "gay" style of behaviour...

I believe I've already stated that I'm not at all comfortable with the concept of "straight acting" and strongly discourage it among the GLBT community and the hetero community as well... i.e. I don't like the idea of trying to "act" a certain way... trying to be something one is not...

People should just be themselves and stop trying to live up to some imagined stereotype. Masculinity can embrace all kinds of types just as femininity can embrace a wide variety of types. We have butch women and effeminate men and the other extremes too. It's not a bad thing. Variety is to be appreciated and welcomed. Those who try to conform to a "type" have emotional issues they need to deal with. They aren't whole persons but people with a problem... they are emotionally sick. People who try to be someone else will never, ever, find themselves. It may be a good indication they are co-dependent personalities and that is a kind of emotional disorder... they are emotionally sick.



Yes. The concept of types is an oversimplification, and trying to be a type would create a maladapted caricature of a person. It's easier to deal with specific behaviors and how those behaviors help or hurt than to deal with types.

I think you're right about gay people being expected to have a certain gay style. Gay style is all over gay bars and villages. Gay style is promoted by gay magazines and by media that are happy to show gay people if they are fashion experts, figures skaters, or buffoons. It's unfortunate to see young gay guys who think they have to play those parts just because they're gay. Straight guys get a different set of expectations. I heard one teenage boy say about another that watching "300" had changed his life and "turned him into a man."

The "pick up artist" trainers have a lot to say about how to impress women with confident stye. But at the end of Neil Strauss's book, The Game, Strauss quotes a former pick up artist trainer who said that a lot of the guys he trained in acting confident with women could have benefited more from therapy to sort through emotional difficulties. If someone is feeling relaxed and happy rather than angry, sad, or scared, that calm will come through in their style. To feel relaxed and happy takes a certain mindset.
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Re: Straight Guys Get Trained in Acting Straight

Postby butch » Tue Jun 15, 2010 4:00 pm

Once when I was at a gay bar, I saw a guy wearing a sweat shirt supporting a lacrosse team. When I went to talk with the guy, he told me in a voice that sounded like Mickey Mouse that he did not play for that team or go to that school. I quickly lost interest.

Maybe you've had similar experiences. What things do guys do that impress you as masculine but not overly aggressive?


I can't give an answer to that question if, for no other reason, it isn't the way I seem to think or feel. I don't look for masculinity although dress is an instant look into a person's personality. If someone were wearing Armani or Banana Republic (slick/dressy) type of clothing I wouldn't even notice... or rather, that would tell me we have nothing in common at all and I would have no interest at all in them. Casual cotton loose fitting clothing would attract me if it wasn't too dressy looking. I'm open to a wide variety of personality traits but "swishy" behaviour would be a real turn off. I have, however, had sex with some guys who I wouldn't consider dating... I'm shallow and a sucker for a certain "look". Short, skinny, wiry are good and I'm usually attracted to younger guys unless it is someone I've known over a number of years and had a continual attraction. Overtly masculine behaviour, per se, is not an attraction, nor turn on for me. The star player for Argentina's soccer team is shy and reticent to talk to the press. So there you have a famous sports figure who doesn't exhibit what we might think of as "masculine" traits.

And I can be quite attracted to shy types of guys... I compensate with my aggressive style and they are likely attracted to me for that very reason.

It's overtly feminine behaviour I don't care for.

Again... physical appearance means a lot to me. I was at the baths a few years ago when I was still quite fit... I was about 60 years old or close to it. I walked by a skinny little redhead sitting on a bench. He looked at me and the reaction was electric for both of us. He stood up and, quite literally, jumped into my arms and wrapped his legs around me. I was very, very attracted to him and he was barely legal, but his build, size and carrot top hair on a hairless body was magical. I expect we would have had an affair (the sex was fantastic) but he lived in Whistler many miles up the road from Vancouver. I like short... he seemed to like tall. I liked red hair, he seemed to like an older guy... though I expect he didn't really realize how old I really was. He told me I had a place to stay and free ski passes if I ever went to Whistler but I never saw him again... just a memory I recall from time to time. I would hardly call a kid "masculine". But he wasn't at all shy and he came after me... that seems a masculine kind of approach to me.

If a person tries to be someone they aren't the cracks will appear quite quickly so it's the same old story... just be yourself and let the chips fall where they will. Don't try to fake it, because it won't work. In fact, an obviously stereotypical (as seen on TV) gay man trying to act macho is quite the turn off.

I'm not attracted to the usual types but certain types of guys just "have it". Here is a photo from the "hunks" thread. This guy definitely attracts me and would definitely get an audition in bed with me... but I wouldn't consider him boyfriend material. I really like skinny guys.

Faces can really attract me, particularly a big nose. This guy's looks are what I would call masculine. He has the look, the muscles, but a kind of shy innocence about him. As a photographer I'd love to do photos of him.



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Turning On Turning Off

Postby Learning » Tue Jun 15, 2010 5:37 pm

butch wrote: I'm open to a wide variety of personality traits but "swishy" behaviour would be a real turn off...
It's overtly feminine behaviour I don't care for...

If a person tries to be someone they aren't the cracks will appear quite quickly so it's the same old story... just be yourself and let the chips fall where they will. Don't try to fake it, because it won't work. In fact, an obviously stereotypical (as seen on TV) gay man trying to act macho is quite the turn off.



Things that attract people are complicated. That should be reassuring to people to realize that people can get turned on in different ways. People acting like their habitual, usual self are likely to find someone.

Still, you've mentioned some things that don't work for you like trendy clothes. Voices make a big difference for me and so does posture. What things strike you as "overtly feminine" and "swishy"?


butch wrote: This guy's looks are what I would call masculine. He has the look, the muscles, but a kind of shy innocence about him. As a photographer I'd love to do photos of him.

Image


Someone I know who coaches models said that she spends days teaching the women how to pose in feminine ways, but she just tells the guys to "act naturally." If you were to photograph this guy, you would not need to coach him much on how to pose. He looks like a stud. The million dollar question is why aren't there more guys like this one who are also gay?

Having the examples like this picture makes things easier to understand.
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Re: Straight Guys Get Trained in Acting Straight

Postby furface » Tue Jun 15, 2010 8:59 pm

Learning wrote:The million dollar question is why aren't there more guys like this one who are also gay?

And why do you imply with that question that there aren't? Just because a guy acts straight[/] or appears to be [i]straight acting don't mean he's straight. Over the years I've had more'n one barkeep lean over and ask me "You know this is a gay bar?". Hell, I've even been asked to leave a bar or two 'cause they didn't think I was gay.

Now, could be I'm just peculiar, but I don't usually give a rodent's rump about a guy's affect as long as I get the vibe it's genuine. I find that, and his confidence, is far more attractive than the facade he paints for public consumption. Be who you are; own it and enjoy it.
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Re: Straight Guys Get Trained in Acting Straight

Postby butch » Wed Jun 16, 2010 12:18 am

The million dollar question is why aren't there more guys like this one who are also gay?


I've met gay guys like this guy and I've met straight guys like this guy, and had sex with both... so I don't think one can generalize too much. Gay guys like him are very rare, but so are the types I like. It's a "bell" curve and there aren't many at the top of the curve. I'm very fussy but that's my problem and dilemma. But I did get lucky... walked up to a total stranger on the street and asked him home. Thought he was straight... he was about to come out and it took me to make it happen. We had 18 years together before he had the misfortune to pass on because of AIDS. He had never slept with a guy before he met me.

I've brought about a half dozen guys out of the closet... I was their first experience and I had no idea when I met them what I was up against. I've picked up quite a few straight guys in my life and I just assumed they were another straight guy I was about to seduce. In my experience, about 80% of straight guys would like a blow job if no one will ever know but them it was a guy who serviced them.

My gut feeling is that you are trying too hard to pigeonhole types. Life is just too complicated to work that way. I really like the looks of that guy, but knowing me, I wouldn't likely want to get into a long term relationship with him because I know I really like skinny guys and experience tells me that type of guy will have huge problem keeping his weight down when he gets to be about 40. I would want a lifemate who had a good chance of remaining slim... skinny. I like skinny... and short is good too (I'm 6'3"... a really big guy). I like someone I can engulf in my arms. But the guy is really hot and I'd love to play with him.

What things strike you as "overtly feminine" and "swishy"?


That's just really hard to answer other than saying "I know it when I see it". Some guys are chatter box gossips talking about every crotch they see, giggle easily... I don't like that. The limp wrist syndrome is too obvious but that is a definite no-no. But a person should be who and what they are. If that's what they're comfortable with then that's what they should do... just not with me around.

Straight acting guys tend to hold back emotions in public. They may cry at a movie but wouldn't want others to see that.

I'm uncomfortable with the idea that men should be one type of male or another. I think people try too hard to stereotype others and you can't really know a person from just a few casual encounters. If a person is overtly feminine and swishy I think that will be obvious in some way. You will know it when you see it.

Martin Prince (the Simpsons)

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Assumed to Be Straight

Postby Learning » Wed Jun 16, 2010 7:12 am

furface wrote:Over the years I've had more'n one barkeep lean over and ask me "You know this is a gay bar?". Hell, I've even been asked to leave a bar or two 'cause they didn't think I was gay.


Thank you for the clarification, Furface. Obviously, people can't assume someone's sexual interests based on someone's personal style. You do have a rugged look. What other things about your usual self leave people assuming you're straight? How do you take it when people assume that you're straight? Does it annoy you, humor you, or give you a sense of relief?
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When Is "Straight Acting" Valued

Postby Learning » Wed Jun 16, 2010 7:36 am

furface wrote:Now, could be I'm just peculiar, but I don't usually give a rodent's rump about a guy's affect as long as I get the vibe it's genuine. I find that, and his confidence, is far more attractive than the facade he paints for public consumption. Be who you are; own it and enjoy it.


butch wrote:That's just really hard to answer other than saying "I know it when I see it". Some guys are chatter box gossips talking about every crotch they see, giggle easily... I don't like that. The limp wrist syndrome is too obvious but that is a definite no-no. But a person should be who and what they are. If that's what they're comfortable with then that's what they should do... just not with me around.


You guys seem to disagree about what things you're comfortable with that people do. Furface admires confidence and sincerity. Butch doesn't want what are called "fats or femmes."

Furface, what do you tell yourself about different people's styles that helps you feel comfortable with a wide range of things people do? You've said that you think straight guys who take courses in being confident or "alpha males" have been duped. Could you explain more about what makes those courses a waste?

Butch, there are some things people do like limp wrists that are taken to be a signal of being gay just as there are things people do that are taken to mean straight. Are those things people do just habits, a "usual self" or are they something that biological and permanent, a "real self"? What things does Martin Prince do that get to you? I would have picked Waylon Smithers as one of the least straight-acting characters from "The Simpsons."
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Re: Straight Guys Get Trained in Acting Straight

Postby butch » Wed Jun 16, 2010 11:13 am

Butch, there are some things people do like limp wrists that are taken to be a signal of being gay just as there are things people do that are taken to mean straight. Are those things people do just habits, a "usual self" or are they something that biological and permanent, a "real self"? What things does Martin Prince do that get to you? I would have picked Waylon Smithers as one of the least straight-acting characters from "The Simpsons."


It's really a matter of one's own personality that seems to define one's likes and dislikes. I don't like jazz... my long term boyfriend loved it... but there were some cross over groups we could both relate to. For instance he introduced me to Pat Methany, one of his really favourite musicians. We seemed to have an understanding that he would play his Charlie Parker records when I wasn't around. We had both common and different musical tastes. He wasn't into listening to Beethoven but I was.

Pat Metheny and his Piccaso guitar:
Image

Martin Prince is quite effeminate, giggles easily, and is in a world of his own... quite oblivious to cultural norms. Waylon Smithers packs a gun and is extremely loyal to his boss and very brave in the face of danger. Martin Prince is a sterotype "fairy" while Waylon may be blatantly gay, to most with any kind of gaydar, he tries hard to be macho and would even jump in front of his boss to save him from a bullet.

Image Image
Waylon Smithers and Martin Prince

It seems not a bad pair of examples of just how varied people can be. We should not be trying to label personalities as either black or white. There are many shades of grey. I consider most men not to be macho. Macho males are less that 10% of the population, IMO. I don't consider many males to be masculine at all... hetero or not. And very few women are what I would call feminine. There seems to be a vast middle ground where the only real difference is a penis, nor not.

My gut feeling is that there is a genetic predisposition to certain traits and the rest is a product of cultural and family background... what one experienced in the first 6-7 years of life. Hatred of homosexuals seems to be cultural in many parts of the world and that would make any person go out of their way to find ways to hide their homosexuality... perhaps to the point of never acting upon their urges throughout their entire life.

I've said it before and will say it again... people should just be themselves and not try to be someone else. A person will go through a variety of personality traits over the course of their lives in any case... in spite of themselves.

If straight acting guys "learn" to be straight, it's just normal cultural adaption... learning to be part of the crowd. Some guys are just confident by nature, but it's something that can be learned and even taught. Self confidence isn't everything... both Martin Prince and Waylon Smithers are both confident. So a macho male kind of appearance is more than just self confidence.

Many would consider Tom Cruise to be a macho kind of guy... I don't see him that way at all. Nor do I see many of the types portrayed in much advertising to be macho. In fact I find many of the images quite the opposite. Most of the guys in Hugo Boss ads are about as faggy as it gets... IMO. The guys in Armani ads scream "FAG" to me. The only thing missing in these ads is the "limp wrist" pose. P.S. nothing much turns me off as an open shirt like the guy on the right. That would instantly turn me off a guy. Talk about Faggy with a capital "F". Extreme gay.

Image

Here we have two obviously gay men with a woman thrown in to try to hide the fact.

Image

This guy looks GAY, GAY, GAY but a good example of the "metrosexual" look. I expect that look is a product of gay male models, gay photographers, gay advertising directors and gay editors coming to dominate the industry. Think Calvin Klein... obviously gay and someone who changed the industry with a few ads featuring Markey Mark (Mark Whahlberg).

Image

Some guys just look male and they are the image the average guy wants to live up to... they aren't NORMAL. It's all in the mind.

Image

He's so hot... even in his old age. It's not just the muscles. There are many body builders that look quite gay, to me. It's the whole package and, somehow, the easy going image of self confidence that makes them look macho. Good looks don't hurt and most aren't at all good looking. Some have good genes, the rest of the crowd are the victims of their parent's genes. Gay men seem to want to constantly "pose" while a really straight acting guy doesn't understand the concept and "just is". They often almost look awkward trying to pose. There is no pose in Markey's look (above). He doesn't know what to do (how to pose) so he's just "there".

This is as close as it gets to him posing... and he is the most "male" model Calvin Klein has ever had.

Image
But he grew up in a rough "hood" and was in a gang until he straightened himself up.

He has good looks and was culturally indoctrinated into a tough boy kind of guy. A combination of genes and culture made him what he is. And, it turns out, he has brains too. What a killer combination. He makes Tom Cruise look like a screaming queen.

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Talking about Examples

Postby Learning » Wed Jun 16, 2010 1:01 pm

butch wrote:Martin Prince is quite effeminate, giggles easily, and is a world of his own... quite oblivious to cultural norms. Waylon Smithers packs a gun and is extremely loyal to his boss and very brave in the face of danger. Martin Prince is a sterotype "fairy" while Whalon may be blatantly gay to most with any kind of gaydar, he tries hard to be macho and would even jump in front of his boss to save him from a bullet.


This video of Martin illustrates the kind of things you're talking about. Since it's easier to talk about specific actions rather than types, I won't say that Martin is a stereotypical fairy. I'll say that Martin uses a high pitched voice, waves hands in the air, gets buggy eyed, and even skips. I laughed when I watched Martin, but maybe it would annoy you. People have different tastes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y7tn9lSERpA

butch wrote:Some guys just look male and they are the image the average guy wants to live up to... they aren't NORMAL. It's all in the mind.


I went to see Marky Mark at a special appearance years ago. He was much shorter than I thought he would be, but the Calvin Klein picture does capture the friendly way he looked as he went around the room to greet those of us who came. There were other guys there who had copied his clothes and hair to the point that they could have doubled for him. Even if it's hard to say what someone's "real self" is, the Marky Mark doubles were not following the advice to "be yourself."


butch wrote:It seems not a bad pair of examples of just how varied people can be. We should not be trying to label personalities as either black or white. There are many shades of grey. I consider most men not to be macho. Macho males are less that 10% of the population, IMO. I don't consider many males to be masculine at all... hetero or not. And very few women are what I would call feminine. There seems to be a vast middle ground where the only real difference is a penis, nor not.

My gut feeling is that there is a genetic predisposition to certain traits and the rest is a product of cultural and family background... what one experienced in the first 6-7 years of life. Hatred of homosexuals seems to be cultural in many parts of the world and that would make any person go out of their way to find ways to hide their homosexuality... perhaps to the point of never acting upon their urges throughout their entire life.

I've said it before and will say it again... people should just be themselves and not try to be someone else. A person will go through a variety of personality traits over the course of their lives in any case... in spite of themselves.

If straight acting guys "learn" to be straight, it's just normal cultural adaption... learning to be part of the crowd. Some guys are just confident by nature, but it's something that can be learned and even taught. Self confidence isn't everything... both Martin Prince and Waylon Smithers are both confident. So a macho male kind of appearance is more than just self confidence.

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That makes sense that most people would not be extremely masculine or feminine. People need to be able to do a lot of different things.

You've reminded me that I've been thinking of "straight acting" as mostly a nonverbal style, the sort of thing that an actor would portray on stage by posture, voice, and movement. Still, a person's style grows out of that person's character and as you point out comes from experiences and natural tendencies. There could be more to "straight acting" than just nonverbal style.

Someone I know who is gay likes to talk about how he surprised people by grabbing and pulling apart two vicious fighting dogs. Yet, he uses a brassy voice that might peg him as gay.

Courses that teach guys to look or sound tough, powerful, or in charge may not address underlying complexities of how someone really feels, thinks, and acts and how ways of doing things fit in another person's life.
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Re: Straight Guys Get Trained in Acting Straight

Postby butch » Wed Jun 16, 2010 1:06 pm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y7tn9lSERpA

That's a good clip because Nelson is so macho acting in comparison.
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Re: Straight Guys Get Trained in Acting Straight

Postby Learning » Wed Jun 16, 2010 1:38 pm

butch wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y7tn9lSERpA

That's a good clip because Nelson is so macho acting in comparison.


Nelson is a lot more of a thug. Do you see things that Martin could learn from Nelson or that Nelson could learn from Martin?
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