Why do some gays out there worry about being masculine...

Discussion on what it means to be straight acting, whether it's good, bad or indifferent.

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Postby Cachasa » Wed Dec 17, 2008 3:57 am

This topic is a lame assed attempt by Desperate to try and convince us that all gays should look and act a certain way because if we don't then we are actually...blah blah....closet...blah blah....inner torment...blah blah... inner chick....blah blah....


"Acting" doesn't necessarily mean "pretending". I don't pretend to be anything.



As impossible as it is for you to understand, some gay men are not nelly or effeminate. They never have been and don't want to be. They genuinely like and do so called "masculine" things, like cars, martial arts, sports, joining the military, camping (the out door kind), whisky, beer, rodeo, and other stereotypical stuff. None of that has anything to do with hiding in the closet or self loathing, we just like it.

If anything you're pretending because you seem to think that there is a certain way to "act gay" and "act straight" and that we must fill equally stereotypical rolls to respect ourselves as gay men.

That's ignorant.
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Postby masculinity » Wed Dec 17, 2008 7:34 am

dracuscalico wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ocDq59B9MhM&feature=related

???

He's Queer, so??? And how is this related with the topic under discussion...
Gays are a different species altogether from men (and women). They're not "men who like men," they are "third gender who like men."

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Postby masculinity » Wed Dec 17, 2008 8:34 am

Cachasa wrote:This topic is a lame assed attempt by Desperate to try and convince us that all gays should look and act a certain way because if we don't then we are actually...blah blah....closet...blah blah....inner torment...blah blah... inner chick....blah blah....

It's not a lame topic at all... In fact, its a very valid topic, something gays dont want the world to acknowledge, but at the sametime don't make any attempt to hide it either, they can't ... queerness is a part of who they are...

The entire world knows it, talks about it and even the gay world does... just acting straight isn't going to change that... Acting without substance is hollow.... and how can you have the real thing... you left real manhood, the moment you chose to cross over to the 'gay' side...

Cachasa wrote:"Acting" doesn't necessarily mean "pretending". I don't pretend to be anything.


It doesn't?

So, you mean as far as you're concerned you're actually 'straight', and not merely pretending to be so?

Cachasa wrote:As impossible as it is for you to understand, some gay men are not nelly or effeminate.

They're not?... then why are they 'gay' in the first place? Why aren't they struggling with their sexual feelings for men, like the rest of the non-effeminate guys or trying to hide it, in order to keep their social manhood? How can a masculine male be comfortable with a queer identity??? If you call a white person black, will he be able to adjust with it?

Cachasa wrote:They genuinely like and do so called "masculine" things, like cars, martial arts, sports, joining the military, camping (the out door kind), whisky, beer, rodeo, and other stereotypical stuff.

There is one simple rule in this world... Like associates with Like... and your identity tells a lot about you... if the entire world accepts Gay as a queer identity, and it has a queer past... and present... even Science accepts it as 'Queer', then how can you claim to be 'masculine' and 'queer' at the sametime ... ? Masculine males can never even think of taking on a queer identity.

Please don't fool yourself, the ones interested in all those things will rarely call themselves 'gay', they may have sex with men, love men but will do so secretly... If there're any 'gay' identified such men out there, then they've taken on the identity by mistake... fooled by Western definitions, AND, they're never comfortable with the 'gay' identity... they THINK, they have no option, since the heterosexualized world defines 'gay' as men liking men... when its actually queers liking men. In fact, you won't find such men relating with gays at all, they'll relate with the straights and live their lives in their company, not with the gays. If you can't relate with people you're identified with, then it means, the identity is WRONG!!!

Cachasa wrote:If anything you're pretending because you seem to think that there is a certain way to "act gay" and "act straight" and that we must fill equally stereotypical rolls to respect ourselves as gay men.
That's ignorant.

This 'you' constitutes 99% of the world, including 99% of the gay world... Accept it, that's the reality... your manhood is just fake... Real men don't accept a queer identity in order to fulfill their sexual desires... Real men will rather fight with the world to get their sexual needs accepted as part of manhood/ straighthood, or leave their needs altogether... like the straights have done... You're weak males... you traded your manhood for your sexual weakness...
By the way, is it us, who has invented the term 'straight-acting' for 'masculine-acting', or ascribed the meaning of 'effeminacy' to 'gay', as in, Hey, you don't look gay (which means, you look quite masculine).
What is truth, is a truth, your not acknowledging it will not change it... it can help you to live in your own narrow well -- a fool's world... it can help you to hide your own weakness, your queerness behind invalid sexual identities and definitions, at the cost of real men... but still, the world will recognise you with the true nature of things... which is reflected by the identity you take.
Gays are a different species altogether from men (and women). They're not "men who like men," they are "third gender who like men."

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Postby PhillyAgenda » Wed Dec 17, 2008 7:40 pm

masculinity wrote:
Cachasa wrote:As impossible as it is for you to understand, some gay men are not nelly or effeminate.

They're not?... then why are they 'gay' in the first place? Why aren't they struggling with their sexual feelings for men, like the rest of the non-effeminate guys or trying to hide it, in order to keep their social manhood? How can a masculine male be comfortable with a queer identity??? If you call a white person black, will he be able to adjust with it?

Seems to me that the problem here is semantics. You are completely hung up on these words and what they mean to you. But they don't mean the same thing to everyone. A lot of people who may simply call themselves gay are not into this "gay identity" or "queer identity" that you keep talking about. You seem surprised that there are non-effeminate men who aren't struggling with their sexual feelings for men, and who aren't trying to hide them. They accept it. They don't announce them to the world like some do, but they aren't concealing it either.
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Postby Cachasa » Wed Dec 17, 2008 11:10 pm

These 2 arrogant egatisitcal queens (Desperate and Masculinity) can't understand. :roll:


If you're a man who has sex with other men then you must accept some so called "queer identity" because that is what being a gay man is all about!!!!!!!!!!!! :roll:

If you don't then you're hidding in the closet and are having self acceptance issues because it is impossibal nay, unacceptable for gay men to be anything but effeminate. AND any attempt to not be effeminate is fake!! It's just an attempt to act like a straight guy and pass!!!!! It can't possibally be anything to do with your own self identifcation or interests, after all a "queer identity" is all that gay men are about!!!!!! It is the central principal to everything that we are!!!!!!!!! :roll:

Being gay=effeminate!!!!!!! :roll:

In our culture, if your gay, you are a man who wants to have sexual relationships/encounters with other men. That's it!!! There is no other criteria. And that's how most people (gay or straight) in our culture view it. Other backward eastern cultures can say what ever they want but they have no relevance to anything that happens in North American gay culture.

Every anthropologist and psychologist that I have talked to argues that gender roles change over time and are fluid and learned. They have nothing to do with any inherent characteristics of an individual ex. Sexual orientation, physical sex, race etc. With few exeptions that is how science views gender roles.

If a gay man acts "effeminately" he does so because he wants to, because he likes to, because he chooses to. NOT because he is gay.

If a gay man acts in a more "traditionally masculine" way he does so because he wants to, because he likes to, because he chooses to. NOT because he is an ashamed gay man trying to hide.
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Postby masculinity » Thu Dec 18, 2008 12:36 am

PhillyAgenda wrote:Seems to me that the problem here is semantics. You are completely hung up on these words and what they mean to you. But they don't mean the same thing to everyone.

There are no semantics here, and there is no misunderstanding at least on my side. I know what's going on in the mainstream west, in gay west, and in non-western cultures. I have studied them in detail... And I know, what you guys want to think about your chosen identities... but, I'm trying to tell you what the overall reality is... which is different from how you would like to see things as, and what your formal definitions superficiously tell you. And that you guys, wittingly or unwittingly are supporting an invalid, oppressive and anti-man system, which is more oppressive than the apartheid system and the caste system combined.

Identities are things which are very dear to people. They mean the earth... each individual can't decide one identity to mean whatever he feels like it to, and then complain that those who shun that identity are 'closet cases'. Even those who control the society have no right to fix the definitions in a certain way, (and manipulating the real definitions from behind the scenes) to suit certain people and render the rest voiceless in claiming their own basic, natural needs -- like the forces of heterosexualization are doing in the West... due to which gays feel so powerful to perpetuate their lies.

My contention that 'gay' is a queer space, is confirmed by history, and by contemporary evidences... and its all documented.

Your contention that 'gay' means just a man's sexual attraction for men, is supported only by the Western definitions superficially, but even practically, I can prove that they believe that gay=effeminates/ queers who like men, not Men who like men, and there's a hell lot of difference.

PhillyAgenda wrote:A lot of people who may simply call themselves gay are not into this "gay identity" or "queer identity" that you keep talking about.

(a) I'm not talking out of the blue... I'm talking about the things that exist in reality and can be distinctively shown to be so, even if they've been swept under the carpet.

You're talking about what the gay community and the Forces of Heterosexualization would like to be shown, even if it's not the reality.

(b) So, if the masculine straight guys who like men, shun the gay/ queer identity, and still love other men, doesn't it mean that the gay identity and its definition is wrong? If you can love men without being 'gay', then 'gay' can't mean 'Men who like men'... and this is actually proven by history and biology of humans. And this is one difference that westerners need to learn.

PhillyAgenda wrote:You seem surprised that there are non-effeminate men who aren't struggling with their sexual feelings for men, and who aren't trying to hide them. They accept it. They don't announce them to the world like some do, but they aren't concealing it either.

You're contradicting yourself here... Its true that many straight (i.e. non-effeminate, not heterosexual straights) males accept their sexual feelings for other men (inspite of the fact that the western society labels such feelings queer). But they are hiding it from the world only because your world's definitions are wrong, and these individual straight males don't have the power to change those definitions.

The fact that they have to hide it from the world, even when they accept it to themselves is prove that your way of defining things is creating problems. And your way of defining things is not supported by biology, history or other cultures in the world, including your own past.

Why can't you people show some broadminded ness and think out of the box... It's true that you have experienced the world in certain ways, but why should you not learn from other cultures/ points of views. Unless, you're too comfortable by the status quo... that you've become selfish... and closed to the reality.
Gays are a different species altogether from men (and women). They're not "men who like men," they are "third gender who like men."

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Postby masculinity » Thu Dec 18, 2008 1:03 am

Cachasa wrote:These 2 arrogant egatisitcal queens (Desperate and Masculinity) can't understand. :roll:


If you're a man who has sex with other men then you must accept some so called "queer identity" because that is what being a gay man is all about!!!!!!!!!!!! :roll:

If you don't then you're hidding in the closet and are having self acceptance issues because it is impossibal nay, unacceptable for gay men to be anything but effeminate. AND any attempt to not be effeminate is fake!! It's just an attempt to act like a straight guy and pass!!!!! It can't possibally be anything to do with your own self identifcation or interests, after all a "queer identity" is all that gay men are about!!!!!! It is the central principal to everything that we are!!!!!!!!! :roll:

Being gay=effeminate!!!!!!! :roll:

In our culture, if your gay, you are a man who wants to have sexual relationships/encounters with other men. That's it!!! There is no other criteria. And that's how most people (gay or straight) in our culture view it. Other backward eastern cultures can say what ever they want but they have no relevance to anything that happens in North American gay culture.

Every anthropologist and psychologist that I have talked to argues that gender roles change over time and are fluid and learned. They have nothing to do with any inherent characteristics of an individual ex. Sexual orientation, physical sex, race etc. With few exeptions that is how science views gender roles.

If a gay man acts "effeminately" he does so because he wants to, because he likes to, because he chooses to. NOT because he is gay.

If a gay man acts in a more "traditionally masculine" way he does so because he wants to, because he likes to, because he chooses to. NOT because he is an ashamed gay man trying to hide.


Two things...

(a) You've again reinstated my point that even gays believe that Gay = Queer, so why should non-queer people who like men call themselves 'gay' or call their sexuality, 'homosexuality'? Since they're not queers, they need to distinguish themselves from the queers and have a distinct name both for their gender as well as their sexual orientation -- they can't share the same label or term that is used for the Queer sexuality for men.

I hope you realise that Queers can like both men and women sexually. Many queers like women exclusively.

So, why shouldn't straights be allowed to like men, and not only when they accept to be queers.

(b) Your stubborness in sticking to the oppressive definitions confirms what I've long believed: That rights are not given, they are snatched...

And if masculine/ straight males want to liberate their sexuality for men from the gays, they will have to get together and say out aloud in a unified tone -- that WE ARE DIFFERENT FROM YOU, and you cannot represent our sexuality for men.

Then you'll be forced to let that part go that doesn't belong to you. Till then, because the powers that be, have appropriated this power to you -- this invalid power to represent "men's sexual need for men", you will never give it up or even discuss the issue with us...

For a discussion, you'll continue to throw the formal, Western definitions at us... Like the stubborn Christians who keep saying, "It is so, because it says here in the Bible!" and continue to throw this as a proof of your standpoint.

Its called circuilatory argument. You just can't or won't argue things in their real perspective. You won't face the facts as they are, without hiding behind your manipulative definitions.

More later...
Gays are a different species altogether from men (and women). They're not "men who like men," they are "third gender who like men."

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Postby Odeh » Thu Dec 18, 2008 8:30 pm

Masculinity has a very valid point, there ARE guys who have normal,
masculine interests who do NOT identify with the gay sub-culture..They
have straight friends and they accept the fact they are attracted to other
guys...within themselves..

They use "gay" as a verb to describe their interests in other men,but not
as a noun to describe their own identity...

They do have a different vibe they give off than the vibe from gay men..
they give off a strongly masculine vibe..many seem to be rural too..

This whole thing is more of a gender thing than a sex choice thing if you
stop,think and analyze it..
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Postby PhillyAgenda » Fri Dec 19, 2008 1:28 am

masculinity wrote:Your contention that 'gay' means just a man's sexual attraction for men, is supported only by the Western definitions superficially, but even practically, I can prove that they believe that gay=effeminates/ queers who like men, not Men who like men, and there's a hell lot of difference.

Oh no, you don't have to prove anything. I'm well aware of that. I think it's very obvious that people believe that.

masculinity wrote:So, if the masculine straight guys who like men, shun the gay/ queer identity, and still love other men, doesn't it mean that the gay identity and its definition is wrong? If you can love men without being 'gay', then 'gay' can't mean 'Men who like men'... and this is actually proven by history and biology of humans. And this is one difference that westerners need to learn.



masculinity wrote:Its true that many straight (i.e. non-effeminate, not heterosexual straights) males accept their sexual feelings for other men (inspite of the fact that the western society labels such feelings queer). But they are hiding it from the world only because your world's definitions are wrong, and these individual straight males don't have the power to change those definitions.

Well there you go right there. A man who prefers men calling himself "straight" today is a joke, and yes he would be called a closet case. It doesn't fly, no matter what you believe about these terms. If I were to say I was straight, no one would interpret that as meaning that I like men. So what are you proposing?
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Postby qwertz » Fri Dec 19, 2008 5:57 am

I have never seen being attracted to men as less masculine than being attracted to women. On the contrary. In my view being attracted to women devirilizes men, while being attracted to men adds a strong masculine dimension to a guy. It provides him virility.
Last edited by qwertz on Sun Dec 21, 2008 5:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby masculinity » Sat Dec 20, 2008 3:26 am

PhillyAgenda wrote:Well there you go right there. A man who prefers men calling himself "straight" today is a joke, and yes he would be called a closet case. It doesn't fly, no matter what you believe about these terms. If I were to say I was straight, no one would interpret that as meaning that I like men.

Yet, those who are affected by the lies have to face all that and show the courage to reclaim their true identity. Afterall, we are men, aren't we -- the most powerful human gender.

And, believe me, the real problem is not that the society won't accept it or make fun of it... the real problem is that there is no awareness about these issues. And that it is not all that easy to call yourself 'straight' and like men, when there is such immense hostility against sexuality between men in the straight world. I mean you're not living in India, where you can hold hands and kiss men and even show a lot of sexual affection in public without anyone caring.

But once you discover who you really are, and where your place really is, the rest will be like eating a piece of cake.

You can do small things to make a difference. Maybe, you can start out by getting organised within the gay space (of course, you're going to need this space for a long time to come, because there is hardly any space for open man to man intimacy in Western straight world), but calling yourself straight (if there are several people doing it, people won't make fun of you!). I don't think I'm being made fun of here... in fact, a lot of gays hate me, but they can't make fun of me, because what i'm saying is based on my knowledge of truth, and KNOWLEDGE IS POWER. In fact, I have so many people who support me.

And don't forget, there are several males today, who are calling themselves 'Queer Heterosexuals'. They have shown the courage, when the Western definitions had not given them that space. In fact, the Forces of Heterosexualization, which want heterosexuality to be the basis of manhood, just hate these queer heterosexuals more than they hate masculine men who openly own up to their sexual need for men (which they want to be the ground for denying manhood and imposing queerhood). Yet, these queer males have shown the courage of conviction, and gone ahead and challanged the definitions head on (afterall, queer as per these definitions was supposed to mean 'homosexual').

PhillyAgenda wrote:So what are you proposing?


1. First and foremost... to understand the real issues involved... and recognize that in principle straight means regular, normal guys, not heterosexual. And gay means queer, feminine guys not 'men who like men'.

2. You're not as alone or disempowered in claiming to be straight and liking men. The entire non-Westernized world (including non-industrialized/ working class/ non-white spaces in the West) have a different definition of 'straight' and 'queer' -- the one I'm fighting for. I've not invented these 'different' definitions. I've just learnt what my society taught me, and now I'm offering them to you.

You also have your own, pre 'sexual-orientation' definitions which go exactly as I'm fighting for. The entire human biology, history and non-industrialized contemporary world is with you.

3. But there is something else WITH you... and that is your real strength. But this is not so easy to understand or accept or realise for westerners who live in an intensely (and artificially) heterosexualized world... and this is, that ALL MEN HAVE A SEXUAL NEED FOR MEN. And that instead of empowering the queer identity, masculine men who like men should help these straight men liberate their own sexuality for men, by organising against the pressures and mechanisms that heterosexualize them and force them to disown their need for men.

Straight men are living in a perpetual fear of intimacy of any kind with men, including of holding hands -- and this fear is not without a conspiracy -- without someone working day and night to create and maintain this fear. Certain Western forces are hell bent on instilling this fear in straight men -- the fear of making them 'queer'. Understand who these forces are and their modus operandi. The success of these forces depend upon only one delicate thing -- the silence of men on certain issues, brought about by the fear of being labeled queer. Liberate yourselves and other men from this fear. By BREAKing THE SILENCE. By breaking the artificially created connection between 'gay' and 'sexual interest in men'. And there is only one hope for straight men -- masculine men who accept their sexual need for them. Only, if these men would stop identifying with the gays and fight for the ones with whom they really belong (even when outwardly, things seem otherwise). And one of your biggest enemies in this fight will be the 'gays', who have become extremely powerful in western societies and whose very 'existence' will be threatened if straights are liberated.

This universal male sexual need for men, is an extremely crucial and invaluable link that you have with other straight men. Rediscover this link, liberate this link and reunite with the straight world.
Gays are a different species altogether from men (and women). They're not "men who like men," they are "third gender who like men."

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Postby masculinity » Sat Dec 20, 2008 3:29 am

In short I'm proposing to;

1. LEARN about the true nature and identity of men from history, biology and other contemporary cultures and REDISCOVER yourself.

2. Organise together with other masculine males who own up their sexual need for men, without identifying with 'gay' or 'homosexuality', but not like the 'g0ys' who are still insisting on breaking from the straights (although, perhaps, keeping in mind ground realities in the West, it may be a more practical approach to begin with -- but you must move on from there).

3. BREAK THE SILENCE.
Gays are a different species altogether from men (and women). They're not "men who like men," they are "third gender who like men."

http://youth-masculinity.blogspot.com
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Postby masculinity » Sat Dec 20, 2008 3:37 am

qwertz wrote:I have never seen being attracted to men as less masculine that being attracted to women. On the contrary. In my view being attracted to women devirilizes men, while being attracted to men adds a strong masculine dimension to a guy. It provides him virility.

Very true. And this was a fact which previous cultures respected and even celebrated. Then in the middle ages, although 'sex between men' was itself held to be 'bad', yet this fact was still recognized, and sexuality between men was seen as a 'masculine vice', not a 'queer dishonour' as it is today.

But the problem is that the Western society no longer recognizes this. In fact, marginalising man's sexual need for men in the Queer space tantamounts to stating, that liking men is a criteria for denying you manhood and to impose queerhood (third sex status) on you.

And, if masculine males who own up to liking men, were to accept this disgrace in silence, (by calling themselves 'homosexuals' or 'gays'), then who's going to fix one of the greatest injustices the world has seen?
Gays are a different species altogether from men (and women). They're not "men who like men," they are "third gender who like men."

http://youth-masculinity.blogspot.com
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Postby masculinity » Sat Dec 20, 2008 6:46 am

Why has the stigma shifted from getting fucked to liking men?

Why have straight men given up sex with men and disowned any sexual interest in men altogether when earlier they only avoided getting penetrated?

Why are straight men so scared of being even socially intimate with men in the West?

And the answer: Because of the invention of the concepts of Sexual Orientation, homosexuality and the 'gays'.
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Re: Why do some gays out there worry about being masculine..

Postby variant » Sat Dec 27, 2008 11:52 pm

Desperate wrote:...when being gay makes a person less of a man anyway?

Why do some gays out there worry about being masculine when being gay makes a person less of a man anyway?

Isn't a gay further digging "himself" back into the closet by denying his true feminine personality? A person exits RIGHT OUT OF MANHOOD as "he" enters LEFT INTO GAYHOOD. I'd say that, for all you "straight-acting" gays out there, it's time to freely start letting out your lisp, lilt, lift, wrist, twist, and swish. Basically, you'll be letting out your inner chick. You know you desperately want to. Why try to be something that you're not? In other words, why are you acting straight when you're not? I mean, come on, we already know that you're gay. Why are you steadily busy trying to hide your sexual orientation when gays are notoriously known for flaunting their sexuality because they can't take the pressure anymore? One way to flaunt your sexuality is to stop suppressing the annoying, effeminate, and flamboyant mannerisms that you're too ashamed or embarrassed to reveal. In this modern day and age, a gay has to learn how to be "himself". I'm merely helping you to feel freer and less tortured and less tormented. When one is gay, that person doesn't care what society and others thinks of "him". Actually, a gay really doesn't care much about anything. Homosexuals are lucky to have a worry-free life and to live in a worry-free environment. Just think about it, "masculine" gays, a worry-free existence! How amazing would that be?!!! Only if you could find the strength to relax and be yourselves, you wouldn't be concerned with trying to "pass as straight", for which you're not doing a very convincing job.



Honestly, when I read this I get the impression some half-assed sociopathic twit took a read on the threads here, absorbed a general profile of the thinking dynamic of the average participant and figured he'd try to make himself feel a bit more important than he's deluded himself into believing. Probably the kind of person who achieves some kind of petty glee in watching people reacting to what is so blatantly an abberation. Seriously, any piece of sh*t can piss other people off. It takes a real man or woman to create happiness, foster it and then ultimately share it.

Desperate? Seriously...lol
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Re: Why do some gays out there worry about being masculine..

Postby masculinity » Sun Dec 28, 2008 2:15 am

variant wrote:
Desperate wrote:...when being gay makes a person less of a man anyway?

Why do some gays out there worry about being masculine when being gay makes a person less of a man anyway?

Isn't a gay further digging "himself" back into the closet by denying his true feminine personality? A person exits RIGHT OUT OF MANHOOD as "he" enters LEFT INTO GAYHOOD. I'd say that, for all you "straight-acting" gays out there, it's time to freely start letting out your lisp, lilt, lift, wrist, twist, and swish. Basically, you'll be letting out your inner chick. You know you desperately want to. Why try to be something that you're not? In other words, why are you acting straight when you're not? I mean, come on, we already know that you're gay. Why are you steadily busy trying to hide your sexual orientation when gays are notoriously known for flaunting their sexuality because they can't take the pressure anymore? One way to flaunt your sexuality is to stop suppressing the annoying, effeminate, and flamboyant mannerisms that you're too ashamed or embarrassed to reveal. In this modern day and age, a gay has to learn how to be "himself". I'm merely helping you to feel freer and less tortured and less tormented. When one is gay, that person doesn't care what society and others thinks of "him". Actually, a gay really doesn't care much about anything. Homosexuals are lucky to have a worry-free life and to live in a worry-free environment. Just think about it, "masculine" gays, a worry-free existence! How amazing would that be?!!! Only if you could find the strength to relax and be yourselves, you wouldn't be concerned with trying to "pass as straight", for which you're not doing a very convincing job.



Honestly, when I read this I get the impression some half-assed sociopathic twit took a read on the threads here, absorbed a general profile of the thinking dynamic of the average participant and figured he'd try to make himself feel a bit more important than he's deluded himself into believing. Probably the kind of person who achieves some kind of petty glee in watching people reacting to what is so blatantly an abberation. Seriously, any piece of sh*t can piss other people off. It takes a real man or woman to create happiness, foster it and then ultimately share it.

Desperate? Seriously...lol


I hope you change your mind when you become more aware of what the situation really is... If you're really masculine gendered, then you'll stop seeing yourself as 'gay' (but not stop seeing yourself as a man who likes men), and stop taking offense when the 'gay' identity is exposed for what it is.

I think, right now, you identify too much with the 'gay' identity, because you confuse your sexual need for men with it.

Yes, desperate is angry. And frustrated. And he really speaks out sh*t against 'gays'. But that is because the gays have taken away his space to like men, without being imposed with their identity. Desperate, like hundreds of straight males who like men, has been rendered powerless to claim his sexual need for men, because of the powerful forces of heterosexualization that are a minority, but still control the Western society -- and that include gays.

The gay identity is just not compatible with a masculine identity. Just as the feminine identity is just not compatible with the straight identity (and queer heterosexuals align with the gays as part of LGBT).
Gays are a different species altogether from men (and women). They're not "men who like men," they are "third gender who like men."

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Postby variant » Mon Dec 29, 2008 1:18 am

Think so masculinity? I read his' post and immediately see an invalidator chuckling hideously at himself at the infliction he thinks he's made.
If not that then I see where you're coming from.
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Postby CollegePepper » Tue Dec 30, 2008 11:04 pm

variant wrote:Think so masculinity? I read his' post and immediately see an invalidator chuckling hideously at himself at the infliction he thinks he's made.
If not that then I see where you're coming from.


That was exactly my impression of the creation of this thread1
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Postby variant » Wed Dec 31, 2008 4:37 pm

I honestly think the display of the "power" the initiator of this thread thinks he has is an opportunity to really assess a dynamic of this force that works against the singularity of the esteem men like us are sometimes challenged to accept. If anything "Desperate" did me a huge favor simply by being the piece of sh*t he no doubt is. lol. If he's a sociopath this'll be some kind of religious mantra he'll enfume and justify his' fundamentally loathsome state of being.

Again: Any piece of sh*t can go around pissing people off. So whats it going to be? Am I going to smell like sh*t because I'm around it? Or am I going to cleanse myself, learn from this and move beyond a low strata in which certain people nourish their' fractured egos in such ways?

lol Adios
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Postby masculinity » Wed Dec 31, 2008 4:39 pm

variant wrote:I honestly think the display of the "power" the initiator of this thread thinks he has is an opportunity to really assess a dynamic of this force that works against the singularity of the esteem men like us are sometimes challenged to accept. If anything "Desperate" did me a huge favor simply by being the piece of sh*t he no doubt is. lol. If he's a sociopath this'll be some kind of religious mantra he'll enfume and justify his' fundamentally loathsome state of being.

Again: Any piece of sh*t can go around pissing people off. So whats it going to be? Am I going to smell like sh*t because I'm around it? Or am I going to cleanse myself, learn from this and move beyond a low strata in which certain people nourish their' fractured egos in such ways?

lol Adios

I've devoted my life to understand men and manhood, and I can tell you that, if deep down you're really masculine (and masculinity is natural, not just a social thing)... then you'd learn to hate 'gay' and 'gays' and everything that concept of 'homosexuality' or 'sexual orientation' and feminism stands for... because these are all anti-masculine male system, identity and space.

This is as much of a truth as the fact that "All men have a sexual need for men".

I've been saying all along that gays are feminine and that masculine men can't be comfortable calling themselves gays...

I'm all with straight men who just hate gays for taking their right and space to love men.

You've to decide whether you're one of the guys or the gays!
Gays are a different species altogether from men (and women). They're not "men who like men," they are "third gender who like men."

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Postby variant » Wed Dec 31, 2008 6:47 pm

I never liked the "gay" dynamic and concept as it stands in contemporary American culture(s). I think/feel we all have a general understanding of what it is like, how it functions etc. It is a social-psychological apparatus apparently.

I think fundamentally I am masculine. Although I embrace both the female and male principles esoterically I do not believe, advocate nor appreciate the misappropriation of these energies and principles etc. SO no, I do not see myself ever being comfortable allowing society "people who do not really know me at all" relagating all that I have to offer/share, represent, and be to a fundamentally compromised status that has little to virtually nothing to do with who I am let alone WHAT I am.

I also believe that it is important that feminen men learn to appreciate themselves more lest the bias and abuse they generally appear to experience continue to expound. I could never look at myself in the mirror knowing that I in some way contributed to the absolute misery of another human being concerning the important realm of self-concept and esteem.

On the idea of restoring the designations of masculinity: I think all acts of creativity evoke forces of destruction. If you're going to create a movement you will be destroying/altering something else of a reciprocal or parallel polarity. I wish to see the destruction of the mind-pattern of preferential ignorance... not the further relegation of femenine men. I do not favor the "gay" cult on it's social level, it's implications thereof. I think this can be changed if more focus were place toward our commonalities with all men rather than crystalizing percieved differences into reality.

As for the decision: I made up my' mind earlier this year. I am a man above all things... but I am in touch with the femenine energy all humans are connected to and are composed of. I'm not bought and paid for by an agenda and never intend to be. I think this issue isn't going to change if we look at things from an isolated perspective. Everything is connected. It's like trying to complete a puzzle with pieces from another set... The reality is that it isn't just an assault on masculinity that people are experiencing it runs much deeper and encompasses more than we choose to include.
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Postby masculinity » Thu Jan 01, 2009 3:47 am

GAYS ARE INDEED FEMININE/ THIRD SEX:

What is the Western color code for girls -- pink

What colour gays have adopted -- pink

Well, some gays prefer purple, which is a combination of pink and blue, again, half-male/ half-female (male bpdy, feminine innerself) exactly what the concept of third sex stands for.

What do the brain structure of gays look like -- like those of women, not like those of men. Science has proven that gays have the female brain.

What does the gait of gays look like -- like those of the women, and science has proven this too.

Just some of the evidences that Gays means "Third Sex that likes men" and not "Man who like men".
Gays are a different species altogether from men (and women). They're not "men who like men," they are "third gender who like men."

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Postby masculinity » Thu Jan 01, 2009 5:40 am

variant wrote:I never liked the "gay" dynamic and concept as it stands in contemporary American culture(s).

The "gay" dynamic and concept has been invented and developed in America and other parts of Western culture. It means what Americans want it to mean. There is no other "gay" dynamic and concept other than what exists in the West.

If only Westerners will stop seeing themselves as superior and stop this cultural imperialism by denying everything that is non-western -- as even existing.

variant wrote:I think fundamentally I am masculine. Although I embrace both the female and male principles esoterically

We all do that. All masculine males have some femininity in them, while all feminine women have some masculinity in them.

In simple terms, masculinity is a feeling of being a male, and femininity is a feeling of being a female. Both can co-exist in an individual in varying degrees.

When the femininity inside a male becomes dominating to the extent that it starts to affect his self-identity as a man, the male then relates more with women (and other feminine males) than with men (masculine males). This calls for a separate social identity than the men -- and that is the origin of the "Third Gender" identity. It also exists in animals.

(If you look at the history of 'gay', it is the same third gender identity, redefined in the West as 'homosexual', and this is the problem/ politics/ conspiracy)


variant wrote:I do not believe, advocate nor appreciate the misappropriation of these energies and principles etc. SO no, I do not see myself ever being comfortable allowing society "people who do not really know me at all" relagating all that I have to offer/share, represent, and be to a fundamentally compromised status that has little to virtually nothing to do with who I am let alone WHAT I am.

(a) This para is a bit confusing. I think you're discarding the 'gay' identity here. Or is it that you are discarding 'masculinity' as an identity and want your gender to be fluid? I'm not sure. Please be specific. It'll help your process of self-identity as well.

variant wrote:I also believe that it is important that feminen men learn to appreciate themselves more lest the bias and abuse they generally appear to experience continue to expound. I could never look at myself in the mirror knowing that I in some way contributed to the absolute misery of another human being concerning the important realm of self-concept and esteem.

I totally agree with you here. In fact, historically, the third gender had an extremely high position in the society -- more than men and women, since God, in the ancient world was supposed to be 'third gender' -- that is, encompassing both masculinity and femininity inside him/her.

But, things are not as simple:

a) The hatred for femininity in men has been socially engineered. Just like, the Western society has utilised the same mechanisms to develop a hatred in men for man-to-man intimacy, by tying them (male-to-male intimacy and femininity) up together in the concept of 'homosexuality' (and thus the separate identity for homosexuals (remember third sex?). So, masculine males end up hating and killing their own femininity, and also hating femininity in other males, especially those who are predominantly feminine.

Therefore, its not so easy to hate men for this. They are what the society has consciously made them to be. If you have to be angry, be angry at the mechanisms that bring about this hatred. Unless you address these mechanisms, hating masculine males will only distance you from them, and you'll end up being with feminine males, sharing their space and identity -- not that they're bad or something, but that biologically, you're not one of them...

b) But, there is also another important angle to this hatred, which makes this hatred absolutely reasonable.

When the society unreasonably imposes the third sex identity on masculine males, (and remember, no matter how it is defined, "Gay" remains a third sex identity), then it is an appropriation of their space at the deepest level (i.e. inside their heart) -- because one's gender identity is the most basic identity of an individual. The principle adopted by the society in this goes like this:

If you like men you're not a man, you're third sex (i.e. feminine male).

And when someone forces himself/ herself on your personal space, its natural to incite anger and hatred, and masculine males typically show this aggressively.

It's especially bad, since both Third sex and 'gay' are extremely stigmatized identities/ spaces... and its not just a matter of personal discomfort of having to share someone else's identity. This has extreme social repercussions -- that of sharing the extreme stigma of a human trait that is not yours.

And it is one of the important reasons why violence against women is perpetrated. Because, women are forced into men's personal spaces (e.g. through marriage, heterosexuualization, etc.).

3. Gays are especially hated (I hate them too), not because they are feminine, but because they insist on defining their femininity in terms of 'man who have sex with men", that leaves masculine males no space to claim their sexuality for men. The problem is because, 'homosexuality' is supported by the Western society, and that is what gives gays such power to thrust their identity on men who are vulnerable and broken from each other -- through ages of conspiracy -- under a heterosexual identity/ space.

Gays are part of the conspirators against men. They are one of the strongest beneficiaries of this conspiracy, which equates "feminine-gender" with "sexuality for men".

Gays want a separate identity from men, like their historical ancestors -- the third gender... however, they force masculine males to adopt a 'separate' identity from other masculine males (who are defined by these very gays, as 'straight' or 'heterosexual'), if they need to fulfill their sexuality for men.

Gays aggressively, not only defend the concept of 'homosexuality' that breaks men from men, on the assumed ground of 'sexual orientation', (ignoring that straight men are disempowered by social mechanisms to own up their sexuality for men), they also impose these on straight males who like men (straight here means normal, regular guys, not heterosexual).

They aggressively call men who reject the gay identity as people incapable of coming to terms with themselves, even when (as in my case) the man embraces his sexual need for men). They claim it is the individual's problem if he can't come to terms with 'being' homosexual (I mean why do you have to 'be' anyone but a man, to like another man?).

However, it is true that many men can't come to terms with their sexual need for men, and many are confused about it. But this problem is created by the wrong and invalid social spaces/ identities attached to these feelings, and it is not their personal incapability, but one created through the social conspiracy of which gays are a part. This confusion is created by confusing sexuality for men with effeminacy, which makes it difficult for masculine males to relate the two, the discomfort he feels with femininity is socially attached to his sexual need for men, creating confusion. Humans are just humans. An average individual doesn't know how to work out of this confusion, especially, since there is no real social help (the only help, god forbid, is offered by the 'gays').

While feminine males will take to the 'gay' identity like fist takes to water, and will find nothing wrong in the fact that this space is feminine, masculine males will feel personally and socially disturbed and confused by it, forcing them to fight their sexual feelings all their lives. This is what the conspiracy against men want.

4. This hatred I have for 'gays' can be likened the one I have for the West and Westerners. Now, I wouldn't hate them if they kept their ways and values to themselves, or if there was just a normal cultural interaction. But, the West has been enforcing itself on us, and thrusting its values, and concepts of 'homosexuality' on us, which takes away my space, as a man, to like other men. And I really resent it. Especially, when I want to discuss the issue on western forums, and they just ban me for no reason. Westerners have great tolerance for everything else, including terrorists... but no tolerance for voices that challenge 'heterosexualization' of the society -- the very basis of the heterosexual society.

This is the only Western forum, where so far I've not been banned, and I think its because, there are some prominent masculine males who like men here, who agree with me.

The West forces itself on us, through its economic, technological and political dominance -- a power it received through the 'unnatural' and highly destructive process of industrialization. And we are rendered voiceless to protect our space.

variant wrote:On the idea of restoring the designations of masculinity: I think all acts of creativity evoke forces of destruction. If you're going to create a movement you will be destroying/altering something else of a reciprocal or parallel polarity. I wish to see the destruction of the mind-pattern of preferential ignorance... not the further relegation of femenine men.

It is possible to create a just society -- and you have to start by visualising it. I am talking about creating something positive and destroying the evil, oppressive, unjust systems (like heterosexualisation, homosexualization, sexual orientation). Unfortunately, evil often comes disguised as 'good' -- it had disguised itself as 'god' such in middle-age religions, and now in the form of 'masculine=heterosexual' and 'feminine=homosexual"social order.

The traits that are defeated by this process are masculine male desire for men, and the feminine male desire for women -- which are actually more a majority than the ones that gain -- i.e. masculine male desire for women and feminine male desire for men (both of them are actually a miniscule minority, given huge powers by through the conspiracy of which they today have become a part of).

There is nothing wrong in destroying this system.

variant wrote:I do not favor the "gay" cult on it's social level, it's implications thereof. I think this can be changed if more focus were place toward our commonalities with all men rather than crystalizing percieved differences into reality.

If you're talking about keeping the concept of homosexuality/ heterosexuality/ sexual orientation... and the 'separate-from-(straight)-men", 'gay' or 'homosexual' identity created by them... and then working to rid the 'gay' identity of feminine implicatios -- then its simply unacceptable. (if you don't, then I'm again not clear as to what you mean!)

There can be no just system that advocates breaking of masculine males from the basic men's space/ identity on the pretext of claimed sexual needs, especially, when strong social mechanisms to force masculine males to be heterosexual. 'Sexual Orientation' is an oppressive, segregating system, no less so than the 'caste system' or the 'apartheid' system'.

In fact its more, because the male gender roles don't allow men to speak against this, and so they go unchallenged. Then they have 'gays', i.e. queers to support it aggressively.

It will be in the interest of everyone to scrap the system of 'sexual orientation', and replace the original system of third gender, with all its former glory and honour -- a space which is for predomiinantly feminine males of whatever sexual preferences. A separate place, not because femininity is hated, but because the transgendered need it. And the 'straight' or the 'men's space' then does not have to exclude male femininity -- it can still continue to celebrate that smaller femininity that masculine males have, within the straight space/ identity. That's how things were originally. There are enough documented evidences of this.

variant wrote:As for the decision: I made up my' mind earlier this year. I am a man above all things... but I am in touch with the femenine energy all humans are connected to and are composed of. I'm not bought and paid for by an agenda and never intend to be. I think this issue isn't going to change if we look at things from an isolated perspective. Everything is connected. It's like trying to complete a puzzle with pieces from another set... The reality is that it isn't just an assault on masculinity that people are experiencing it runs much deeper and encompasses more than we choose to include.

Again, I don't really know what you're trying to say here.
Gays are a different species altogether from men (and women). They're not "men who like men," they are "third gender who like men."

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Postby variant » Mon Jan 05, 2009 2:14 am

Masculinity your' reply was huge and I didn't have alot of time to get back to you and still don't. It's not easy to condense and format, I guess you'll eventually get to know where I'm coming from over time.

I'll try by saying that The ultimate goal is to undo the apparatus of shame for all genders, all identities by first finding out how the current system works, why it was built, - reverse engineer everything bit by bit and also present this art in a form that bypasses the rejection of the population currently programmed by this oppressive apparatus not by force but by clarity.

Hope that addresses something. More to come later on...
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Postby masculinity » Mon Jan 05, 2009 5:49 am

variant wrote:Masculinity your' reply was huge and I didn't have alot of time to get back to you and still don't. It's not easy to condense and format, I guess you'll eventually get to know where I'm coming from over time.

I'll try by saying that The ultimate goal is to undo the apparatus of shame for all genders, all identities by first finding out how the current system works, why it was built, - reverse engineer everything bit by bit and also present this art in a form that bypasses the rejection of the population currently programmed by this oppressive apparatus not by force but by clarity.

Hope that addresses something. More to come later on...


Totally agree!!! :D
Gays are a different species altogether from men (and women). They're not "men who like men," they are "third gender who like men."

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