Advice wantedd

Discussion on what it means to be straight acting, whether it's good, bad or indifferent.

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Advice wantedd

Postby hottmale » Sun Nov 30, 2008 6:13 pm

Ok...So heres my story in a nutshell. For the past like three years, I have considered myself bisexual. I usually want to hook up with girls, but get hard when thinking about sex with guys, so I usually just watched gay porn. Over the past month, however, I got myself to only watch straight porn. I found myself having wet dreams about guys though. My dilemma is this: I'm nervous I won't be able to get hard when I have sex with a girl. Any advice or experience??? Thanks.
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Postby Sportsguy » Sun Nov 30, 2008 6:50 pm

Welcome Hottmale! I don't think I can give you any useful advice because I am 100% gay. I really don't think you should get yourself all worked about it. I think you should just let nature take its course. There are quite a few guys that are bisexual. I know this was not much help, but please feel free to post some more here and the other forums!
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Re: Advice wantedd

Postby jkav » Sun Nov 30, 2008 6:59 pm

hottmale wrote:Ok...So heres my story in a nutshell. For the past like three years, I have considered myself bisexual. I usually want to hook up with girls, but get hard when thinking about sex with guys, so I usually just watched gay porn. Over the past month, however, I got myself to only watch straight porn. I found myself having wet dreams about guys though. My dilemma is this: I'm nervous I won't be able to get hard when I have sex with a girl. Any advice or experience??? Thanks.


First of all, Welcome. :)

The best advice I can give is this: sometimes it's counter-productive to try too hard. Over-analyzing something as complex and as illogical as sexual attraction can leave someone more confused, frustrated or unhappy than they ever were before. In my own life, I've gotten myself so worked up over a problem like the one you've mentioned, that a solution I would normally reach easily becomes unattainable. Take a step back and put the whole guy/girl thing on hold for a day or two. You may be surprised at the clarity that comes from temporarily putting something on the back burner.

That said, if you're into girls, you're into girls, and if you're into guys, too, then you're into guys, too. But trying to force yourself into a group you're uncomfortable with isn't smart. We continue discovering things about ourselves and our sexuality throughout our lives. Personally, I have had relationships with women that are about as close as any two people can get, but when it comes to lasting relationships of a romantic and sexual nature, it's all about guys for me. I didn't realize that right away, but some things take time.

Also, your original post was a bit ambiguous as to whether or not you've had relationships (romantic or sexual, or both) with women. It's a personal matter, one I wouldn't expect you to elaborate upon if you didn't want to, but if you've had hookups with women in the past, I wouldn't doubt your ability to perform with one in the future. If it ain't broke...

Seriously, though, try taking a time out. If you're worried about not being able to perform with a woman, then try to avoid letting a situation like that develop until you're ready to go.

Take care of yourself, and I hope you'll hang around and post some more.
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Postby dracuscalico » Sun Nov 30, 2008 9:37 pm

If you haven't had sex with a guy, you need to do it and see whether or not you actually like it, rather than being preoccupied with resisting something that you keep thinking about. Actually doing it will give you the truest reference point from which to judge the situation, because you will actually know the difference in how it feels to you to be with guys versus girls.

A. You did it but it didn't do anything for you after all. Wouldn't do it again.

B. You did it and it was pretty good, but there was still something missing. Could do it occasionally.

C. You did it and it was the bomb! Want to do it exclusively.
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Postby masculinity » Mon Dec 01, 2008 2:56 am

hottmale wrote:Ok...So heres my story in a nutshell. For the past like three years, I have considered myself bisexual. I usually want to hook up with girls, but get hard when thinking about sex with guys, so I usually just watched gay porn. Over the past month, however, I got myself to only watch straight porn. I found myself having wet dreams about guys though. My dilemma is this: I'm nervous I won't be able to get hard when I have sex with a girl. Any advice or experience??? Thanks.

I am afraid I don't have any advice or experience to share to address your specific problem, , but I am writing to tell you that you have given me an important clue in solving one of the longest standing problem in life's grand puzzle for me...

But first let me tell you this. I'm from India and I can tell you that ALL MEN HAVE A SEXUAL NEED FOR MEN -- or in Western terminology all straight men are bisexuals. Even though today, after India's Westernization and heterosexualization, men don't admit it anymore, however, for him who is willing to look behind social facades, this universal male sexuality for men becomes very obvious.

I have had several platonic relations with straight men (I'm also part of them), , which nevertheless had a strong sexual element which was also expressed freely though in unacknowledged ways. but I always saw them struggling with their sexual feelings for me, while not being able to break from me either. All this had a set pattern, and it became the goal of my life to understand what prevents straight men from getting ahead and having a relationship, although hidden with other men, when they have such intense desire to do so. I mean it was understandable that they would not want to acknowledge these feelings and have any relationship quietly, hidden from the world. But, I saw them fighting with their feelings, one after the other, as if they wanted to get rid of it... That I had aroused in them a need which they had been fighting so far, and they couldn't leave it or take it. It was a most pitiable condition they were in.

Amongst the various reasons I could establish --- after analysing men after men -- all of them straight, majority, regular guys, in extremely emotional intimacy with me -- seeing their most vulnerable side, that the world never even knew or acknowledged existed --- were:

(a) (the most important), the concept of 'sexual orientation' which created a fear in them of being segregated and isolated from the 'men's identity', space and 'manhood'., and being labelled with the third gender, queer gay identity which they just didn't feel they were part of. They just didn't feel different from other men (they were all into it secretly); This made them not recognize their sexual need for men even in the privacy of two people who loved each other.

(b) Strong social disapproval. However, if it wasn't for the above reason, men could have easily accepted their desire in private, despite the social disapproval and stigma...

(c) Strong social power and manhood that came with proving your sexual need for women and proving a repulsion for sexuality with men, with which the society bought the souls of straight men.

(d) Strong punishments for crossing the 'manhood line (in the west the heterosexual' line) -- although, instead of actual sex with men, it was an acknowledgement of their sexual interest in men that decided whether they had cross the 'manhood' line and made the difference between who was 'gay' and who was not. The strongest punishment was what has been mentioned in point (a) -- isolation from masculine male space (men's spaces) and identity or manhood and banishment into the third sex, 'homosexual' ghetto. Other punishments followed from this, including social ridicule, vulnerability, disempowerment, and so on.

(e) Strong conditioning of straight men right from the adolescence, that makes them believe that the only way to be a man is by relating sexually with women and by avoiding intimacy with men (this is actually a characteristic of a westernized/ partly westernized society).

(f) HUGE ego that the society builds around straight men after they have proven their exclusive heterosexual status -- whether real or fake. Men are extremely scared of this ego being broken, and although it makes the men seem much more powerful and strong than they really are, it is actually hollow from inside, and the real man inside is much-much weaker , vulnerable and hollow than the masks and ego make him appear, because this inner man was always suppressed and never allowed to develop. What mattered was conformity.

This can also be understood as the society putting straight men on a HIGH, very high pedestal once they prove their exclusive heterosexual status, including a repulsion for intimacy with men. Men are threatened with being thrown from this height into the dark depths of 'gay' world, at the lowest bottom, if they break the rule of crossing the 'manhood' line to acknowledge their sexual and romantic feelings for men. Men are extremely afraid of falling down from this pedestal.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

However, apart from all these reasons, I used to get a vague feeling that one reason is that somehow straight men believed that if they start being with another man, they would lose their 'heterosexuality' so to speak, something they have built very painstakingly, but is actually very, very fragile and vulnerable (making me suspect that it is more a product of nurture, conditioning and social pressures than natural). It was like if they allowed themselves to like men, they would lose the capacity to like women, and thus would risk losing their manhood -- A matter of life and death for anyman (in the west manhood is called 'straight', and the lack of it is termed as 'gay', although these concepts/ terms are mis/redefined in terms of sexuality).

I also felt that they were worried that if they started to have sex with men, they would lose the capacity to have sex with women. But I could never confirm any of this from straight men, because you can't talk to them about these things. They would rather die than admit these issues even exist. Gays know nothing about this aspect of straight men, even in India.

By putting it in such exact words, you have for the first time defined a this fear that straight men have. And this gives me another lead, to solve the puzzle of the complexity of man's oppression in this world, which only sees their masks of heterosexuality and social power -- not who they reall y are. they are defined by the gays who are themselves an artificial creation of the western heterosexual society.

In any case, I have a feeling that you could be very helpful for me, by giving me an insight into the straight mind which, usually, never talks about these things. I could use this knowledge in my fight to liberate straight men.

You can also visit our group's website:

http://youth-masculinity.blogspot.com
Gays are a different species altogether from men (and women). They're not "men who like men," they are "third gender who like men."

http://youth-masculinity.blogspot.com
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Postby nimby » Mon Dec 01, 2008 12:54 pm

Most straight guys fantasize about other men. It one of the world's best kept secrets. Don't panic. Just don't force anything, don't repress anything, and go with the flow.
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Advice wantedd

Postby Alliano Kiniea » Mon Dec 01, 2008 2:13 pm

how'd you come up with that stereotype,

its not even logical,

if a dude is fantasizing about dudes,

he's not straight.

your whole sentence was just.......... no
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Re: Advice wantedd

Postby matinee » Mon Dec 01, 2008 9:15 pm

Alliano Kiniea wrote:how'd you come up with that stereotype,

its not even logical,

if a dude is fantasizing about dudes,

he's not straight.

your whole sentence was just.......... no



THIS!

There actually are 100% straight and 100% gay individuals and a whole bunch in between. Saying that all men get a woody for a man at some point in their life is just an empty assumption or wishful thinking. It would be like saying that all gay men are sometimes attracted to women. I can tell you that in my 40 some years of life I have never felt even a tingle for any woman. You can either take the experiences of actual people at face value or keep ignoring what is being conveyed to you (you know who you are).
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Re: Advice wantedd

Postby masculinity » Tue Dec 02, 2008 8:35 am

Alliano Kiniea wrote:how'd you come up with that stereotype,

its not even logical,

if a dude is fantasizing about dudes,

he's not straight.

your whole sentence was just.......... no


That's a typically Western, Gay point of view, but it isn't right ya know. The rest of the world lives, feels and behaves differently!!! until you guys go and force your wierd ideas upon us.
Gays are a different species altogether from men (and women). They're not "men who like men," they are "third gender who like men."

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Re: Advice wantedd

Postby masculinity » Tue Dec 02, 2008 8:59 am

matinee wrote:
Alliano Kiniea wrote:how'd you come up with that stereotype,

its not even logical,

if a dude is fantasizing about dudes,

he's not straight.

your whole sentence was just.......... no



THIS!

There actually are 100% straight and 100% gay individuals and a whole bunch in between. Saying that all men get a woody for a man at some point in their life is just an empty assumption or wishful thinking. It would be like saying that all gay men are sometimes attracted to women. I can tell you that in my 40 some years of life I have never felt even a tingle for any woman. You can either take the experiences of actual people at face value or keep ignoring what is being conveyed to you (you know who you are).


(a) Your point of view is not necessarily wrong. But only if we assume that 5-10% are exclusively heterosexual, and another 5-10% exclusively into men. And if this is true then straight cannot be defined as exclusively heterosexual. Straight means 'normal', 'majority', the right path, what most people do or want to do, and it is wierd to say that the traits of 5% of people is the 'normal', right, thing for most people to do. Thus straight should then mean bisexual.

But what do we see in the Western society? A 90% exclusive heterosexual population -- that is hard to digest and not supported by evidences from non-Western societies, nor from the wilderness. :roll:

(b) However, for mammalian males, the truth is that their sexuality is defined more by sexuality towards other males than females. That is to say that the sexuality for men is a universal and inherent feature of masculine male sexuality (with a few exceptions -- gays), while a constant and exclusive sexuality for females is a queer and minority trait, with a few exceptions. Male sexuality for females is seasonal or periodic, not constant, although maybe more 'pressing' unlike male sexuality for men which is constant.

In other words, its easier to find males who have no sexual need for women, than to find males who have no sexual desire for other males.

Don't jump from your seat yet. This is supported by research in nature (e.g. 95% of sex by males in Giraffe is with other males); by documentation from ancient and contemporary societies (ancient Greek society, Samoan tribes, contemporary Afghan society -- Kandahar area, hundreds of warrior societies across the world including Samurais) where men are under no kind of pressures to suppress their sexuality for men; and by several scholars who have continued to stress this universality of man's sexuality for men (Michel Foucault, Alfred Kinsey and thousands more).
Gays are a different species altogether from men (and women). They're not "men who like men," they are "third gender who like men."

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Re: Advice wantedd

Postby nimby » Tue Dec 02, 2008 10:40 am

matinee wrote:
Alliano Kiniea wrote:how'd you come up with that stereotype,

its not even logical,

if a dude is fantasizing about dudes,

he's not straight.

your whole sentence was just.......... no



THIS!

There actually are 100% straight and 100% gay individuals and a whole bunch in between. Saying that all men get a woody for a man at some point in their life is just an empty assumption or wishful thinking. It would be like saying that all gay men are sometimes attracted to women. I can tell you that in my 40 some years of life I have never felt even a tingle for any woman. You can either take the experiences of actual people at face value or keep ignoring what is being conveyed to you (you know who you are).


Ok. Professionals point of view:
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.h ... wanted=all

Or if you don like that, here are the experiences of actual people:
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index ... 011AAGAXPA

It does happen all the time. F*CK!! Denial isn't just a river in Egypt!
"Why do we have asteroids in the hemisphere and hemmorroids in the a$$ ? "
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Postby masculinity » Wed Dec 03, 2008 5:51 am

When I was around 5 or younger, a young guy made him feel him all over, showed me his dick and masturbated before me (or made me masturbate him, I don't remember), I remember, at that young age, wanting to grope him as I pushed my hands into his back. I don't remember feeling anything sexual though, but eversince, I started fantasizing about every male member in my family, till my adolescence, and became fixated with these thoughts. But I knew nothing about the western concepts of sexuality or that I was doing anything 'abnormal'.

The guy I mentioned had done the same thing to a female child in the neighbourhood as she once related during our childhood. So, as per western definitions he was not 'gay'.

Sexuality, I believe is set by your experiences, otherwise we have the capacity to be attracted to both males and females. While we may get fixated at one sexuality, (if the society doesn't give us opportunity or freedom to explore one 'classification' of sexual experiences with dignity), and this, in the West results in the formation of 'sexual orientation,' he would usually still feel the other part of sexuality, which was not allowed to develop, occasionally.

I did not get the opportunity to develop my sexuality for women, because I became so fixated with men, and since I started going to school pretty young (students in my class were usually five years older to me), I started being bullied by them and all through school I did not make friends and was not part of a peer male group.

This alone made sure that:

(a) I did not build in me mechanisms to check and restrain sexuality for men, that other straight men learn to build. I never had the 'opportunity' to fight or struggle with my sexuality for men, or learn that it was anything different or. although till I was 16, this bad or abnormal or anything. I did not know there was anything like 'sexuality' for men' different than 'sexuality for women', or that I was thinking about anything different. In any case, my sexuality was too unformed, and underdeveloped and didn't go beyond imagining men naked.

(b) I was spared the usual social mechanisms of pressures, of extreme punishments and rewards and conditioning that would force me to develop a sexual need for women. I never thought that was required, becoz I was not part of a peer group, no one told me. Other straight boys were struggling to develop a sexual desire for women, as that meant power and manhood, and were busy proving their sexuality for women -- although mostly through mere talks.

In college I had a deep emotional bond with another straight guy, and my sexual feelings for him became entwined with the emotions and that helped me develop a well developed sexual/ emotional/ romantic desire for men. But then for the first time, I was under peer pressure to prove a a sexual interest in women, And, like other boys I started forcing myself to develop it (especially, when I saw an effeminate guy in my class who was ridiculed by everyone as 'homo', who would go around seeking sex with everyone). I was disiadvantaged because I started late and the primary sexual need was already taken up by this male friend with whom I had a deep but platonic bond. We both had become inseparables. If I would not visit him for one day, he would become desparate and would come to my house to seek me. I got up in the morning sent to college, spent my day with him, and then we'd go to either his house or mine (we lived in the same locality), and then eat at each other's place (we ate of one plate!), then would play cricket all day or chess or would study till the evening. In the evening we used to go to the market where we'd oggle at the girls, and then sit in the park together, mostly in silence, for hours into the night, sometimes till about 11 and occasionally, even 1 pm, going to one of our house's to have our dinner. We had just become two bodies and one soul. He was the one who told me about the concept of 'homosexuality' and described it as a disease that some males get. I was so terrified of this disease that I determined to fight it off or commit suicide, and decided that I'll never, ever let my feelings for him be known. But when the feelings intensified and I could not bear it, I just broke the bond -- what helped was that we were moving out of the colony to a far-far off place. He was heart broken. And, I was surprised, for the first time he showed sexual interest in me. But at that time, I did not know that all men have this... I just thought I was one in a million and decided that he was just doing it to please me, or to win me back. So, I left him nevertheless.

But during my sojourn with him, I did start feeling sexual towards girls... goaded on by the intense pressures to prove my manhood and avoid the dreaded 'homo' label, ... ( I lived in a partly heterosexualized society!) however, I was not interested in relationships with them, as I was just too comfortable with the guys, and later developed the confidence that natural manhood or straighthood did not have anything to do with sex with women (in any case I had never learnt that in the first place). I never felt any different from other men.

Later, as I spent my years in men's spaces for the first time (I had missed them during adolescence) -- these were partly heterosexualized spaces, but men would usually stick with other men, and girls with other girls, I had deep platonic relationships with a strong sexual element with one straight man after another, (I'd just pick the most desirable, the machoest and handsomest straight guy in my social setting and devote myself totally and exclusively to him -- and he would not only reciprocate but also get intensely emotionally involved with me... there would be intense sexuality from his side, but it would be hidden and unacknowledged, and they expected me to take all the initiatives, which I did not want to, because I did not feel in any way inferior or different than them. I never desired to have anal or oral sex with anyone, actually, (didn't know there was such a kind of sex, and when I did, it only put me off), but was only intensely attracted to their bodies and wanted to touch, feel and mutually masturbate -- as far as sex was concerned. And as far as I can tell, they also felt the same way about me -- they intensely desired my body, which was centered around my penis, not my ass... and wanted to touch, me feel me and to masturbate with me, but not to have anal or oral sex.

This involvment with one straight man after another in succession, after the previous one broke, meant I had no time or inclination to develop my sexuality for women. But working on matters of gender and sexuality right from my adolescence I did establish that I have around 20% sexual need for women. It was 20% because I never developed it... otherwise it could have been much higher.

I discovered this 20% while in a workshop on sexuality, where I was forced to allow a girl to touch me sensually on the face... (usually, I'd have a mental sexual block when I was near a girl), though I became tense, I discovered that it aroused me sexually. And since then I started fantasizing about women, watching them naked, touching their sexual organs and getting erections doing that. But, I was still into bonds with men and since none one of them had been fulfilled, the intensity of my desires went on building up, and I never thought about pursuing my sexuality for women seriously. I could deal with social pressures now.

There were several occasions, even before this workshop, and especially after it, when girls would stand too close to me on crowded buses, I'd be sitting, they standing with their crotch touching me... I knew they were meant to be disguised sexual gestures, and I felt such enormous attraction at that time, like a strong magnet is pulling every cell in my body towards her... it was a feeling I never got from a man, I was surprised by its intensity... however, it didn't still force me to pursue these feelings. They'd come and go. And, I'm confident, its becoz of how I got fixated on my attraction for men, early in life, due to my circumstances.

Recently, in my office, when I was again deeply in love with a straight guy, who was as usual struggling with his own feelings for me all the time to really be able to give me the love he had in his heart for me... a new girl came to our office... she was the sexually aggressive kind and started making advances towards me. I avoided her, but when she came and stood near me, I don't know what happened to me, its again a feeling that no man has ever given me --- I suddenly felt very hot and sensual -- and she had not even touched me, she just entered my sexual space with a sexual intention. I was so aroused and each cell of mine started to push towards that girl, making me feel strangely sexual and hot. I never pursued that as well. I guess, I'll never pursue girls until my sexuality for men is fulfilled. But, through my relationships with straight men I have learnt a lot. The most important things: (a) that all men have a sexual need for men, including all straight men, and (b) This sexuality is more than just casual, its deep and strong and emotional, inspite of severe crippling of it, administered through various social mechanisms and institutions when the sexuality is forming. What I found iin the straight men was the sexuality for men which survived its mutilation by the society. And often I gave the guys the opportunity (something for which they're not going to be thankful to me) to develop their sexuality for men.

In the same office that I'm talking about, there are about seven young guys, including me. The rest are married/ older. And would you believe, one after the another I god involved, either intensely or casually with all of them, and except in one case, the other guy's sexual interest in me was much stronger. Would you say all these guys are gays are bisexuals? How did so many of them got together at one office. It can not be mere coincidence. Especially, the same thing has repeated itself in the past in different social situations I was in.

In this office, I of course chose the best looking guy in the beginning. I just sat with him on the lunch table and allowed my legs to touch is. And he knew it. And then we started to sit together everytime at lunch. It went on for several days as we kept getting feeling bonded with each other. But what bothered me was that this guy was too much into girls. He was very emotional with them and cared too much about them. He was always in their company (actually he was a bit soft himself). Then I found out he was in a committed relationship with a girl in my office, my colleague (who incidentally was trying to flirt with me too, and when I did not respond started to suspect I was 'gay', I knew it though she never said it). I can't bear to have a relationship with a guy if I know that he slept with someone and I am very possessive about my male bonds. So, i just left that guy. This affected him unexpectedly severely, and he started getting depressed. I asked him one day, and he said, he's in love. He didn't name me, but it was obvious. The same day, in front of that girl, he denied having any relationship with her, and called her his 'sister' which means that a male will not think of that girl as a sexual partner. He was willing to give up his girlfriend for me. I was pleasantly surprised, but his girl friend caught on to it, and started to raise a hue and cry, without actually accusing us of starting a sexual relationship. She was my friend and I did not want to steal his boyfriend, so I just started keeping distance from him. Then one day, he left office for another city, without meeting me or saying a word to me. He was heart broken.

Then I turned my attention to the next good looking guy in the office. I did not find him very attractive, but amongst the available he was the best. Soon we became the best of pals and he started to get sexually interested in me beyond his control. He started to be open about it, and soon people started to talk. Then he suddenly realised his mistake and started taking steps to re-establish his 'heterosexual' image. I was not bothered, and actually people did not raise their fingers at me, because I was careful not to be so open. However, that girl I mentioned she was noticing each and every act of mine and getting more and more convinced in her mind that I was 'gay'. This guy would always sit intimately with me, we kept chatting through out the day using sexual connotations, (like he'd say, I masturbate and stuff and tell me all about it, wanting to know how I masturbate and all -- it gave him sexual kicks). But we'd also talk a lot about girls and having sex with them. He remarked in front of everyone, "I have never seen you in that (sexual) way, but if you want I can start"... it was supposed to be a joke, but people realised what was going on between us.

Then, all of a sudden, he fell in love with a girl, strangely someone he met on a bus, ... and the moment I learnt about it I left him. He felt really bad about it, and did not know why I was doing that... since I was not really involved with him, I did not feel like letting him know (indirectly) why I've stopped being 'sexually' close to him. He apparently found nothing wrong in wanting me and the girl at the sametime.

Since that day, he always tries to be sexual with me, like putting his hands in my trousers to drag me, touch my crotch often, even blatantly like he is desperate (unlike other straight men who'd do it casually, when flirting with me).

Then a college guy came as trainee, and soon he got involved with me... too intensely than I wanted. I was actually recovering from my past relationship that broke, before I came to this office, and I had decided not to be in a relationship again, and just flirt with the guys, and that is why I was like so flirting with one guy or the other (which I don't normally do! But this guy fell for me, and started expecting a relationship. Only I did not really like him that way, and I was actually flirting with him only because well he initiated it and I did not want to hurt him. It was just a pastime for me. But, this guy would spend money on me, and would roam around with me till late in the evening doing my work. One evening he asked me to sleep at his house, and I refused point blank. He was so heart broken, the next day he came with his resignation.

There were two other young guys -- one I did not like at all, who kept wanting to get close to me (I would observed me and realised i liked to be close to men), but I kept him at a distance, because he was not my type and actually he was a kid. Only 16 or 17. The other guy seldom came to the office as he was always in the field, but I made a secret 'straight' pass at him, and he grabbed it.

Just then the college guy returned (after three months) with another dude. And this was really a guy. So macho and handsome and so 'strict', composed and controlled about his behaviour and image, looking that I never thought he would ever have anything to do with me. But once we went out together and were sitting close, and he did'nt mind. So, I started to do this more. And before we knew it, we were touching each other all the time, on the pretext of handing over paper, pen, watching over each other's computers, sitting next to each other with always our legs intimately touching the others'. It just happened without effort and there was social space for straight men in India to do this without being gay. I took it a step further and put my hands near his crotch on the pretext of holding the mouse, once when he came to see at a file. He was awaretuof that hand, and instinctively drew back. With my experience, I knew not to get my ego hurt, and that he would want it the next time. And sure enough, the next time he came he stood close to me, and his crotch too close to my hand's way to the mouse. I grabbed the opportunity and placed my hands on the mouse, with his crotch rubbing against my hands. And since that time, we started to do it all the time, he touching my crotch and I touching his. We had already become so possessive of each other that he didn't like me to even talk with other guys too much... He would get desperate when his friend put his arms around me. We had a secret understanding that we will not be physically close to other guys and certainly not allow our crotches to be touched by them. This possessiveness was there in all the bonds with straight men that I've had. And then soon, the girl I mentioned above, caught on to it and for the first time confronted us directly, asking us, what is all this going on, when we were sitting with our legs shoved into each other's crotches -- on the pretext of discussing something. This hurt the guy deeply, as he had a strong macho straight image and he was very careful about that image. He started to restrain himself and keep away from me, and to fight with feelings for me too, but it was a fight like with other straight men, whether at one time he tried to break away from me, the other he came even closer than before. We became too much involved with each other, so much that we couldn't live without seeing each other everyday. He used to talk about girls all the time, but I was sure, he did not have any sexual thing for girls, because he always kept aloof from girls at the same time. Now the entire office was talking about us. Once when we were sitting intimately with each other doing some work, my boss came and told us off, saying what is this working in pair thing? Why can't you work separately? The earlier guy who made a girlfriend once called me 'gay' and 'abnormal' (when I remarked that too much desire for sex with girls -- he had a freaky nature -- was abnormal) and said in anger that I'm always glued to this college dude. He was with us, and kept quiet, but it affected him deeply, and closed the fate of our bond. This college dude became so insecure about his straight status, that he decided to take on a girl friend from our office, while still keeping me. I was mad with anger. It was the ultimate act of disloyalty to me, and I immediately broke our bond, and started to keep away from him. I mean, if he even thought about having anyone else, boy or girl, when I was being so loyal to him, I could not take him anymore. He immediately left that girl, when he found out that I was leaving him. But the girl kept pursuing him, and this made me mad. He kept saying he had nothing to do with the girl, but everytime the girl came to him, he could not avoid her. She took his mobile and checked his messages, would chat with on on gtalk and all this made me mad, and I thought he is secretly keeping his relationship with the girl. So, I opened up to him, saying he can either keep that girl or me. He kept pleading he had nothing to do with the girl, but I did not believe him. I wanted him to go to the girl and say "you're my sister", because that would seal the chances of anything romantic between them. He couldn't do it, he promised he'd keep away from her... but I was adamant. So, this guy decided to quit the office and we separated. I couldn't think of life with out him, but I did not want someone who cheated on me, so I let him go. The night before they (he and the other college guy) were supposed to leave the office we met at the other guy's place, and my lover pleaded me to stay there for the night. He wanted to 'consumate' our deep bond before we separated. But I refused. He pleaded with tears in his eyes (but also said that he is planning to propose to a girl as he returns to his college). He said openly, for the first time, in front of the other guy that he is feeling extremely sentimental and is very disturbed that night.
When he saw me off on the bus, as I boarded, he got on the bus too, looking intently into my eyes with tears in his, and as the bus started and he got off, while alighting he almost shouted taking my name, "I'll never forget this night in my entire life". The next day separated. I later found out, he did not have any real relationship with the girl, and he was just using her as a prop to create a heterosexual image, since all that talk about us started. I tried my best to get him back to office to have him back into my life, but as they say, what you allow to go never returns.

This guy used to say some real nasty things about 'homosexuals', and at the sametime wanting to sleep with me in order to have something sexual... He, like other straight men in India and the West, only consider one to be gay, if you acknowledge your interest in men. When it is disguised behind a heterosexual mask and not acknowledged you're just not gay.

All through this there the other college guy, who was earlier involved with me kept trying to break us off, and many of our misunderstandings were deliberately created by him.

I remember how that girl was so surprised, that boy after boy was getting involved with him -- she never thought that straight men would care about another guy sexually. She must have hated me and felt insecure.

And, let me narrate these to incidents that highlight the points I've been making:
In the first incident, while still in office, I was told by these two westernized college dudes that its not ok to hold hands in public in westernized places like malls and Mc Donalds, while we did that all the time in traditional spaces, including our office. I told them how this fear is created by the western concept of 'homo'-'hetero', and the so-called effeminate westernized 'gays' who define themselves as 'men' who like men. The guys were impressed by what I had said, which I realised only when at lunch one day, as the girls kept using the word 'gay' in order to be funny and to put down in light manner, the guy with the girlfriend, I immediately interrupted, taking my chances, saying, all this talk about 'gay may be very funny, but it is getting so much enconsed in our societies that men are now afraid to even hold hands, lest we are called 'gays'. The moment I said this, the other guys in the office (there were several girls and guys) just couldn't control their emotions and chipped in one after the other, in very emotional voices, how the westernized spaces are creating a fear in them of social intimacy between friends calling them 'gays', and expecting that guys should only have any kind of intimacy with girls. In fact, this whole debate had started only when the girls kept trying to break the guys group who sat on one side of the table and saying guys and girls should intermix like in heterosexual spaces, saying otherwise, they might be suspected to be 'gay'.

In another interesting incident, which clearly shows how the concepts of 'gay' and 'homosexuality' are treated by westernized straght men in India. The four of us guys were sitting in park on a weekend. The one with girlfriend was still openly flirting with me as well as the handsome college dude. But since, we were intensely possessive about each other, we only 'used' him to hurt each other, when we had issues -- which was always. So, when he allowed him to place his head on his lap, I got extremely angry and went and lied down with my crotch facing his legs. As I knew for sure, I immediately put his legs right on top of my penis. My lover did not know what to do, he became panicky... later while still lying in the park, my 'lover' guy said that in a debate on 'homosexuality' in his college he had said that homosexuality should never be allowed into India, because, then it becomes difficult for 'normal' guys to even hold hands with each other. Later, I narrated about how guys in my college remarked that it is very pleasurable to masturbate, but when a guy friend does it it's even better. To which the earlier college guy immediately responded, yes its true, its really pleasurable when you friend masturbates you. To this, the guy with a girl friend, who was trying to touch my crotch all this while, immediately got up and made a repulsive sound, "ugghhh", he said, "don't even ever talk about such a thing," "just don't do it" as if it was something he just hated. And we were all, the four of us, heavily into each other in wierd combinations.

Later, I heard that the guys made fun of my 'lover' guy in college (which is an extremely westernized and heterosexualized space, unlike our office and residential areas) for saying he wants to hold hands with his guy friends. They teased him and called him gay, and said, Oh, don't ever expect me to hold hands with you... My guy is a manly guy with a lot of power in his college and he dealt with it quite dexterly, like a true straight man. But I don't think he will ever dare to speak up for men's spaces again. He's very sensitive about his image and heterosexual status.

Today, he is deeply in love with a girl, but still wants me back. I see his loving that girl as his betrayal, and don't ever want to meet him again.

So, this is the truth about 'gay' and 'straight' and I have innumerable such incidents -- from my life, as well from thousands of counselling experiences -- as well as researches of other cultures, history and biology of both humans and mammals, that prove beyond doubt that ALL MEN HAVE A SEXUAL NEED FOR OTHER MEN', and that the 'gay-straight' divide is there, but its basis is not sexuality but gender.
Last edited by masculinity on Thu Dec 04, 2008 3:33 am, edited 3 times in total.
Gays are a different species altogether from men (and women). They're not "men who like men," they are "third gender who like men."

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Postby masculinity » Wed Dec 03, 2008 5:53 am

Given the intensity of suppression of sexuality towards men amongst straight men in western societies, it is surprising that it still survives in such strong though hidden forms, acknowledged and disguised, as exemplified by this site. My observation that sexuality for men is the basic sexuality of men in nature, which amongst straight men is forced into the secondary position through conditioning and pressures is born out by this.. That is why it comes out in situations such as prisons.

Gays, who are mostly effeminate males totally fixated into men, are the foremost amongst people who perpetuate the myth, that one is either gay or straight.
Gays are a different species altogether from men (and women). They're not "men who like men," they are "third gender who like men."

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Postby Laiku » Wed Dec 03, 2008 10:55 am

Where do you get your information about this topic by the way?
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Postby Alliano Kiniea » Wed Dec 03, 2008 1:58 pm

oh cool, i caused some discusion.

but that one post is extremely long, ima read that one in parts.
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Re: Advice wantedd

Postby PhillyAgenda » Wed Dec 03, 2008 10:48 pm

hottmale wrote:Ok...So heres my story in a nutshell. For the past like three years, I have considered myself bisexual. I usually want to hook up with girls, but get hard when thinking about sex with guys, so I usually just watched gay porn. Over the past month, however, I got myself to only watch straight porn. I found myself having wet dreams about guys though. My dilemma is this: I'm nervous I won't be able to get hard when I have sex with a girl. Any advice or experience??? Thanks.

Hey. I agree with some previous comments that first, even though it may be difficult, don't obsess over classifying yourself with a word. You've hooked up with girls before I assume? Like jkav said, if you've hooked up with girls in the past and enjoyed it, that doesn't mean it has to change if you're into guys too. However, based on what you said it sounds like you're not sure of your attraction to women sexually.
I'm curious about a few things with your situation.
Have you ever actually done anything with a guy?
Did you force yourself to watch straight porn or did you really want to?
Do you only get hard thinking about sex with guys, or does thinking about sex with girls get you hard too?
And, do you want to hook up with girls and have sex with them because you like it, or for some other reason?
Sorry bout all the questions, just trying to get a sense of where you're coming from.
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Postby masculinity » Thu Dec 04, 2008 1:02 am

Laiku wrote:Where do you get your information about this topic by the way?

I've devoted my life to understanding this, to get at the roots of this. To understand men, their situation, their oppression... and maybe, if I'm lucky, by the time I'm dead, I can also suggest a way out.

Btw, I've worked a lot with men on gender and sexual health issues.
Gays are a different species altogether from men (and women). They're not "men who like men," they are "third gender who like men."

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Postby dracuscalico » Thu Dec 04, 2008 7:12 am

Laiku, perhpas you could click on his link for more info.....
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Postby masculinity » Fri Dec 05, 2008 8:29 am

Also, I didn't know anything about gays, or about male effeminacy... I didn't know there was such a thing. I had often seen Hijras singing and dancing and asking for money, but I thought that they were just males wearing saris... never really thought about it. Once, I remember as an adolescent I furiously told one of them, who had come to our neighbour's house to sing and dance (for they'd a new child)...,"Aren't you ashamed of wearing a Sari being a man?"

I decided to explore the gay community, since I had read that 'gay' means a man who is attracted to other men. When for the first time I saw a non-Hijra male, wearing unisex clothes, with a make-up and talking and walking like women, I was simply surprised beyond words. Actually, its a feeling I can't describe. I couldn't believe what I was seeing, so much so that I started to feel giddy... I was just a kid in college, who knew nothing about these things. I remember feeling the sameway when as a child, while sitting on a bus, I saw a man on the street, with no eyes, no nose, no mouth, just a plain muscle for a face... I just felt giddy... I mean today, I just can't imagine that it is possible, then what was it that I saw, was it a dream that I am perceiving it as real? but I actually did see it...

When I met gays, I had further trouble understanding them. I had gone thinking that I'm gonna find people like me. But they were just so different. They were like Hijras, but they wore male clothes. Some of them wore make-ups the others looked like men, until they decided to act queer, and then they would clap hands like a Hijra, address each other as 'she' and 'girl' and innumerable things.

I did find 'normal' men, and they did use the word 'gay' but it was only to describe the activity they were doing, not themselves, and not as an identity. Gay was used as a name for a 'hobby'.

However, the queers called themsevles 'gays'. But they also referred to themselves as 'Koti' and 'Hijra'. they used 'gay', 'homo', 'koti', 'Hijra' interchangeably to refer to their 'third sex' status.

Once I commented to a 'gay' who seemed 'straight-acting' that I don't like that gays act like women, especially the thing about putting make up and doing drag, and he said angrily, you're so 'homophobic'.

I was amazed. I had believed in the definitions that I had read in books and dictionaries that said a 'homosexual' is a man who likes another man. Nowhere did it warn me about, it also involves being a half-male/ half-female.

I had the worst time of my life trying to relate with them. I tried to organise them to do something about 'gays', however, all they wanted was to have sex and have parties -- they seemed to have such enormous sexual drives, unlike normal people. I just couldn't relate with them, and was utterly confused.

It was then that two things happened... one of my female friends, whom I told about my being 'gay', told me, "so, why do you have to be gay to like men?"

I said, "what?" I didn't know what she was talking about. I mean the definitions said, gay is a man who likes men.

She said, "Well, just be with a man, love him have a relationship with him, you don't have to be 'gay' to do this."

I did not get the import of what she was saying at that time. I was very frustrated with the gay community, but didn't know what was the way out. I learned it slowly becoz of the second thing that happened.

And that was that I started to find out that ALL THE REST OF THE MEN, which were defined as 'straights', were interested in me, sexually... i.e. they found my body sexually erotic, attractive, they wanted to touch my crotch, my body, they felt utterly grateful, when I reciprocated them -- and doing all that, they did not see me as different but as one of them. I compared this with the gays, where I felt totally out of place.

My first tete-e-tete with the fact that ALL MEN HAVE A SEXUAL NEED FOR MEN, came as I became a desirable young man from a gawky adolescent, and started to move out into the world, I was surprised to find that the men ogled at me at lot, they were just attracted to me, everywhere I went, all the time... wherever I was men would just look at me. Not only that, they would turn their heads to look at me. I remember once when going with an aunt, there was this young charming man who got out of his car and was about to shut the door, when I went past in think on a scooter, and he just stopped there in his track to look at me. On another trip outstation with my family, I still remember, feeling very romantic in an exotic place in the Himalayas as a straight and sweet looking guy driving the auto kept looking back at me in a sexual way. I was as masculine as any of them, so it was a bit confusing what they found attractive in me. Furthermore, men were supposed to be interested in other males as '*$#*@# holes' and would be interested in a another male's asses. But these men were interested in my crotch. Men were flirting with each other all the time, everywhere.

I remember, once while jogging with my college friend, my jogging pants tore off from the crotch. That day, men just couldn't stop looking at my crotch. They turned back to look at it, making me feel embarrassed. My college friend who had told me 'homosexuality' is a disease noticed that too, but I think, we don't usually think about these things consciously.

Of course, it was not only men who were looking at me, but the women too...

However, the first important confirmation -- initially at a sub-conscious level and later I became quite conscious of it, comparing it with what west tells us about some men are gays and the rest heterosexuals -- was on the city buses, in which I had to travel daily. There was so much groping and touching of crotch and other parts of body in a sexual way, but the focus was always the crotch -- by men, especially the young men and boys, of each other, that it would be a gay's paradise. Only, people just keep away from gays. They only do it to each other. It was not possible to go on a bus and not be groped or felt by a man for most of the travelling time. Wherever you're standing, and even if you try to avoid it, they'd find a way by positioning themselves or their hands in such a way as to touch your crotch. If I got an erection, the touching would become simply desperate.

But, in the beginning I just could not extrapolate it to say that the men I know (these were all strangers, who did not know each other) would be interested in me too. However, encouraged by my experiences on buses, I decided to try out... and the rest is history.

I used to counsel men on issues of sexual health. Men often came with concerns about their penises, and I would look at them (I enjoyed doing that I agree). They would sometimes get erections too. But I remember, when I started going to the gym and hanging out in boys groups, I became extremely macho and I suddenly noticed how tremendously it changed my desirability for men. Before this, I used to look quite childish.

I remember this stall on counselling that my organisation had put up, where I was seeing something like 100 young men (from 18 to 28 or so) in a day for about a week. I was astonished that men after men got an erection, the moment they took out their penis. I wouldn't have to touch them, they just got erect. But it was not as if they were enjoying it. Many were extremely shy or uncomfortable about this. I remember one straight guy, and he was one of the handsomest I have ever seen, whose penis started to dribble just by showing it to me, and another who ejaculated as I just held it in my hands. I noticed at the same time that the same thing happened in buses, when I casually touched someone's crotch with my elbow or otherwise. They immediately got an erection. Sometimes they'd get embarrassed at other time they were just thankful. It became clear that unlike the common notion in India that men like feminine males sexually, I saw that straight men were just crazy about masculine, macho males with power.

When I started having relationships with straight men, eventhough platonic but with a strong sexual element, and it would be any guy that I chose (again this can happen only when every man has a strong sexual need for men), and all these people were so hateful of gays and being called gay, did I realise that I'm not gay at all. I'm one of these people, I relate with them, I have qualities like them, I have feelings like them, and that includes sexual feelings, and my gender was the same as them. Gays were just, so different.

There was another thing. Unlike Western straight men who act as if they abhor male eroticism and those who indulged in it, I found out that my value in the men's spaces increased tremendously, once men realised I was open to sexuality from another man (I was never promiscuous, I'd only limit myself to one guy). Once it became clear, even my enemies wanted to be friends now. Even boys who used to treat me badly now wanted to pay for my snacks at the shop or to invite me to their homes. It was just funny. And to top it all, I was one of them, I was never treated as someone different. I was NOT different. I had just the same sexual feelings as them. They were afraid of those feelings. I was not. But gays were still different.

It was then I realised what my female friend had once told me, matter-of-factly.

Since then I decided to study this further and take the matter up as an issue of men's rights. I started to learn more about straight men's sexual interest in men, through my work as well as through researching historical, cultural, biological, etc. data. I consciously started to observe everyone around me, that I came into contact with. And the more I researched, the more I became confirmed that indeed, ALL MEN HAVE A SEXUAL INTEREST IN MEN.

The second thing I study was, what prevented men from accepting or acting on this sexual need. I also learned about other pressures of men, including the all pervading pressure to exaggerate one's sexual interest in women.

The more I studied and observed, the more it became clear that the real problem is the western concept of sexual orientation, the way it defined and classified male gender and seuxality and the gays. Gays were widely seen to be third sex in India.

Therefore, the third thing I started to research was the 'third sex'. So that I can find out what makes them different from regular, straight men. I researched ancient cultures, historical records and data from wild animals, and what I found was that queers were different not because of their sexuality but because of their gender, a concept I realised after discussing with westerners that they don't even recognize.
Gays are a different species altogether from men (and women). They're not "men who like men," they are "third gender who like men."

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Postby nimby » Fri Dec 05, 2008 9:50 am

Alliano Kiniea wrote:oh cool, i caused some discusion.

but that one post is extremely long, ima read that one in parts.


As you can see, it doesn't take much to get masculinity going. The information he presents is somewhat interesting, but way too long. He would do better to break it into smaller snippits. Much easier to digest.
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Postby Laiku » Sat Dec 06, 2008 4:49 am

I agree on that. I´ve read the complete Bible in a few weeks and I still have problems with masculinitys long posts.

Laiku, perhpas you could click on his link for more info.....

Sadly, that's no answer to my question. I meant stuff like studies, questions and the like, something where I can look at the results firsthand. I´ve learned that that's a better approach while searching for information on my articles for wikipedia (there is a lot of crap out there and in many cases e.g. rules of taxonimic classification are simply ignored or unaware of).

Maybe we should clarifiy something first.
When we speak in this thread about sexual orientation, is that definition based on the physical sex or on what is called gender? Let's face it, that makes a difference. And by the way do we use "gender" and "sex" only in the framework of humanity or do we include other animal life too? Believe me, that reeaaalllyyy makes a dfference.
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Postby masculinity » Sat Dec 06, 2008 6:18 am

nimby wrote:
Alliano Kiniea wrote:oh cool, i caused some discusion.

but that one post is extremely long, ima read that one in parts.


As you can see, it doesn't take much to get masculinity going. The information he presents is somewhat interesting, but way too long. He would do better to break it into smaller snippits. Much easier to digest.


You're kidding...

these posts I've written here are great achievements for me. For two years, whenever I debate this topic with westerners they just do not believe that it is possible for straight men to like men, and they ask for evidences that ALL MEN HAVE A SEXUAL NEED FOR MEN.

To compile the evidences together is a hell of the task. But I knew that the most powerful evidences are my own empirical evidences. The western society, its science, its definitions of gender and sexuality, they all have a duty to explain my experiences -- by no means limited to individual interactions but several years of experiences with a cross-section of straight guys... And if science fails to explain this properly and transparently, then we have to accept that it has serious lacunaes...

Remember, you can't trust whatever science says with closed eyes, because it has several weak points, and its possible to distort truth through science by making wrong assumptions, by taking wrong samples, as well as by making wrong deductions, even while following the rules in letter (though not in spirit).

Similary, you can't discard whatever science has not proved, because those who control the institution of science, who decide what would be studied and what not, where would they put the money, what thesis will be accepted what not, and all that, have an agenda. And they will never probe something, they either don't believe in or don't want to believe in.
Gays are a different species altogether from men (and women). They're not "men who like men," they are "third gender who like men."

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Postby masculinity » Sat Dec 06, 2008 6:34 am

Laiku wrote:I agree on that. I´ve read the complete Bible in a few weeks and I still have problems with masculinitys long posts.

Laiku, perhpas you could click on his link for more info.....

Sadly, that's no answer to my question. I meant stuff like studies, questions and the like, something where I can look at the results firsthand. I´ve learned that that's a better approach while searching for information on my articles for wikipedia (there is a lot of crap out there and in many cases e.g. rules of taxonimic classification are simply ignored or unaware of).

What exactly is it that you want more information on... if you tell me, I can probably help you... I have collected a number of evidences, studies, etc. However, the best source for knowledge is not these studies, but the empirical evidence. I think Western science has taken away our capacity to empathise with people, to listen to how they feel, while imposing our scientific theories on them. (E.g. not trusting when 'gays' said that their sexual feelings were innate... or not trusting the transgendered when they say that there feeling of being the other sex comes from within -- science insists that cannot happen -- its an assumption it is making by ignoring what people feel. Another example science says masturbation is harmless, but innumerable people all across the world have reported some kind of pain or aches associated with it, if not long term problems... but since science has not been able to establish that, it claims their feelings are psychological not real).

Laiku wrote:Maybe we should clarifiy something first.
When we speak in this thread about sexual orientation, is that definition based on the physical sex or on what is called gender? Let's face it, that makes a difference.

There can only be one definition of 'sexual orientation' and that is the one defined by the West -- which negates gender, and is only concerned with the physical sex of people. If we were to consider gender, then the whole thing of 'sexual orientation' loses its significance.

Also, how will the concept of 'sexual orientation' describe my experiences of living and working with straight men in the Indian society. (and its the same in all non-western societies, as well as non-middle class, non-white, working class segments of the west -- and I have documented evidence of that). Let's face it, 'sexual orientation' can only be valid in an artificially created, heterosexualized environment, and to build this environment costs a lot of social and financial investment, that is only possible through industrialization.

Laiku wrote:And by the way do we use "gender" and "sex" only in the framework of humanity or do we include other animal life too? Believe me, that reeaaalllyyy makes a dfference.

Several biologists have reported more than two genders in the wild. However, for the most part, science which is incapable of recognising or understanding human gender identities beyond the 'man', 'woman' binary, how can it recognise or understand that in animals, where there are no established social roles of 'third gender'.

But one thing is clear, the third gender amongst animals is associated with male 'heterosexuality' rather than with sexual bonding between two males.
Gays are a different species altogether from men (and women). They're not "men who like men," they are "third gender who like men."

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