Why Straight Guys Have Gay Sex...

Discussion on what it means to be straight acting, whether it's good, bad or indifferent.

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Why Straight Guys Have Gay Sex...

Postby nimby » Thu Sep 18, 2008 11:33 am

I found this article that I thought was very enlightening. I'd like to share and get feed back on...


Straight Men Who Have Sex With Men
Inside the secret world of the straight guise
By Tristan Taormino
published: July 31, 2008
Once again, a female singer has a hit song called "I Kissed A Girl"; I saw Katy Perry perform it on network television the other night. As she danced around in her cute yellow dress, I thought: "Wow, singing about lesbian smooching was pretty racy when Jill Sobule did it—same title and subject, different and better song—in 1995 on MTV." Now it's ready for prime time? Well, it's been almost 15 years. Plus, the whole idea isn't that threatening anymore. If a straight woman confesses she's messed around with another woman—even had full-blown sex with her—most people are quick to shrug it off. She was drunk. She's experimenting. At most, maybe this means she's bi-curious. But it's no big deal. Women have a lot more leeway to explore their sexuality with other women without questioning their orientation or setting any alarms off. On the other hand, society doesn't make room for men to do the same. Can you imagine the flip side of this scenario? No, I don't mean Bon Jovi topping the charts with a new rock anthem called "I Made Out With a Guy." Let's say one of your male friends confesses: "I was at the club last night with Bob. The music was pounding, I had a few shots, and his hair just looked so good, so we made out, and I jerked him off in the bathroom." For most people, there's really only one response: "Dude, you're gay." Maybe, but maybe not. According to the Centers for Disease Control, more than three million men who self-identify as straight secretly have sex with other men. Although there's been some mainstream dialogue about African-American men who have sex with men "on the down-low," there hasn't been much talk about white guys who do it. And there are plenty of them out there. Take a brief scroll through one day's worth of "Men Seeking Men" posts on New York City's Craigslist, and you'll find dozens of listings like "Str8 Guy Needs Great Cocksucker" or "Handsome Masculine Married Irish Guy Seeks One or Two Hung Married Irish Buddies Who Want Head and Maybe More." From the super-brief to the incredibly detailed, some posts offer interesting explanations:

Though I have always been hetero, I also have had a fantasy to anonymously suck cock and swallow his cum.

I am a married white male forty-six, six-one, one-ninety—a goodlooking, successful, Ivy-educated guy who finds himself in town alone this week. Not interested in changing my life in any major way, but do feel the occasional need to deal with this side of my nature.

I am married . . . looking to provide no reciprocation needed or wanted oral service for VERY masculine, verbal straight/bi/straight acting men. My clothes do not even have to come off. This is about YOUR pleasure . . . not mine.These examples articulate some of the reasons why heterosexual men get it on with other men: for anonymous, no-strings-attached sex; to explore homoerotic desire without a gay identity or relationship; or to fulfill a fantasy, including one of dominance and submission.

"When these straight men have sex with other men, it is not about an attraction to the other man—it is about an attraction to the sex act," says Joe Kort (joekort.com), a licensed therapist in Michigan. "When asked about what they enjoy, it is never the actual man, but instead his body parts, the sexual behavior they engage in." Many of Kort's clients (who are overwhelmingly white) are straight men who have sex with other men (SMSM). He's even created Straight Guise (straightguise.com), a website dedicated to the subject. He cites dozens of explanations for SMSM behavior: "Some have been sexually abused and are compulsively re-enacting childhood sexual trauma by male perpetrators; some have sex with men because it's easier and requires fewer social skills than those required to have sex with women; some are 'gay for pay'; some like the attention they receive from other men; some like anal sex, which they're otherwise too ashamed to talk about or engage in with their female partners." He acknowledges that some of these men may be bisexual or closeted gay men, but in his experience in treating clients over an extended period, many of them are not. He believes that when it comes to sex, identity and orientation, preferences, fantasies, and behavior do not always neatly line up in one category. More often, they are complex and even contradictory.

Mike, whom I found on a personals website, is 44, married, and works on Wall Street. He has been having sex with men for four years, and says he likes the closeness and the male bonding. Plus, "It's just less complicated than with women. We're both there for sex, and that's it." John, 35, also works in finance, identifies as straight, and is dating several women. But he mostly enjoys getting blowjobs from men: "There are less emotional complications for me. Many men will do things some women will not, and many men give better oral sex. I think men will exercise their hunger for sex and not deny that they are horny more so than women. They feel comfortable sexually bonding." Both men admit that their female partners don't know about their behavior; in fact, their families and friends don't know.

Unlike some psychology professionals who want to pathologize these men, treat them for sexual addiction, or "cure them" of homosexuality, Kort approaches his clients without an agenda. He also unpacks some of the cultural baggage that contributes to this phenomenon: "They are interested in the sexual contact with other men. They are working through issues of father hunger, lack of touch from other males, and the need for contact with other men on deeper levels that women enjoy with each other and men do not. Some of these men tell me they meet other men and really just want to be held and talk to the other men, but that the men they meet want it to be sexual, so they go through with it but really don't want to. Ironically, since men are not allowed to touch—except for a pat on the butt in sports—they use the sexual realm to find ways to touch each other and receive touch."

Please visit my websites, puckerup.com and openingup.net
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Postby edu999 » Thu Sep 18, 2008 1:38 pm

uhm... bisexual

:)

Perhaps on the Kinsey scale they're closer to the straight end than the gay end, but, yeah, I would call them bisexual.
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Postby Pazuzu P. Sasquatch » Thu Sep 18, 2008 2:05 pm

The "masculinity" Syndrome: "I'm straight, but I like sex with guys."

Git the kids inside, maw! Kin ya smell that? There's a big pile of B.S. a-headin' our way!!! Lock up the bandwidth!!!!
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Postby nimby » Thu Sep 18, 2008 2:33 pm

Pazuzu P. Sasquatch wrote:The "masculinity" Syndrome: "I'm straight, but I like sex with guys."

Git the kids inside, maw! Kin ya smell that? There's a big pile of B.S. a-headin' our way!!! Lock up the bandwidth!!!!


Considering the name of this site is "Straight-Acting", then I guess everyone here suffers from the "Masculinity" syndrome, eh?

See I'm not too interested in labelling people any further than they already are, I'm just interested in trying to understand them more. Thats all. No bullshit.
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Postby Pazuzu P. Sasquatch » Thu Sep 18, 2008 2:49 pm

I never really interpreted the term "straight acting" as "pretending to be straight." as posters on this board seem to do occasionally. I interpret it as "not fitting the stereotype."

I like guys, and don't pretend otherwise. I'm openly gay but not feminine. That's what <I> mean by "straight acting." I never thought of it as "Oh, I'm putting on an act!" which I've noticed some other posters here seem to.

See? That's not the same thing as "I'm straight but I like dick." which is what I'm cracking on here. Sorry if I wasn't clear about that.
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Postby Earl Butz » Thu Sep 18, 2008 2:56 pm

No masculinity syndrome here. Anyone who cares knows I'm gay.

Have never understood bisexuality myself. But if you go both ways, that's what you are. You ain't straight!

Re labels...agreed. Who really gives a crap at the end of the day who's putting their dink where.... :roll:
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Postby Pazuzu P. Sasquatch » Thu Sep 18, 2008 2:59 pm

Sadly, a lot of people care a lot about just that very thing. It's called "homophobia."
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Postby nimby » Thu Sep 18, 2008 3:32 pm

And "heterophobia." And throw "bi-phobia" into it too.
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Postby Pazuzu P. Sasquatch » Thu Sep 18, 2008 3:46 pm

Those all exist, but I think that in the overall scheme of things the hets don't really suffer preference-based discrimination all that much. I don't have statistics to quote; it's just my gut feeling.

I think bisexuals get a lot of crap, too. . . . unless they're women. Especially hot women.
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Postby douglassnow » Thu Sep 18, 2008 8:44 pm

In 1948 Alfred Kinsey guessed that about 37% of human sex was gay sex, most of it between straight men. Kinsey himself was a pretty good example of his own guesstimate. The New City Department of Health did a fairly exhaustive study in 2005, entitled "Discordance between Sexual Behavior and Self-Reported Identity, a Population-Based Survey of [4,193 foreign-born and native] New York Men," which showed that:

1. 10% of self-identified "straight" men have sex only with other men.

2. 10% of "straight" men have had sex with at least one man in the last year.

3. 10% of married men also have sex with men.

4. 70% percent of "straight" men who have sex with other men are married.

If you do the math (figuring that 95% of all men are "Straight"), what Kinsey reported in 1948 and what the New York Department of Health reported nearly 60 years later come very close to the same figure: Nearly 40% of all human sex is gay sex, mostly between straight men.

Now if we can restrain the leap to judgement...considering the essentially secretive nature of men (so it seems to women), particularly masculine straight men, we can be sure that they're not telling their wives about it, or their friends or acquaintances--and in fact, given the normally isolative character of men's emotional nature, it is likely that, in a sense, they keep it hidden from themselves.

What I think preposterously unlikely are the facile explanations that "therapists" trained in the "depth" (i.e., unscientific) psychologies spew forth to explain why it is that so many straight men have gay sex. Anything that smacks of Freudianism ("seeking an emotionally absent father") or Adlerian snob/class psychology we can muck out with a pitchfork. Likewise every kind of "compensatory" theory of straight-gay man-sex stinks of bullshit. The only explanations that sound reasonable are the ones the men themselves offer: "It's hot. It's less (far less) complicated than male/female sex. It's just sex...." You begin to realize that, whatever else it may be, even for the Don Juans and Hugh Hefners of this world, heterosexual sex with women is a lot more serious than the jolly good time men have with one another.
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Postby Pazuzu P. Sasquatch » Thu Sep 18, 2008 9:32 pm

Interesting and fascinating stuff. But unless you call things by their proper names, words don't mean much. A guy who engages in sex exclusively with other men is not "straight" in any sense that really communicates anything language-wise.
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Postby furface » Fri Sep 19, 2008 9:58 pm

Administrator's Note:

This discussion has strayed way off topic. Please return to the topic specified in the originator's initial post.

Discussion of masculinity's curious world view should be posted here I invite all the masculine gendered males here to join me...

Off topic posts will be deleted. Continuing to post off topic will result in the topic being locked.

Your cooperation is expected.

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Postby furface » Tue Sep 23, 2008 10:27 am

Administrator's Note:

After considering requests to reopen this thread I have decided it deserves to be reopened. masculinity's monologue has been split out and locked as a separate thread.

Please keep any further discussion on topic, and if you wish to discuss masculinity's hypothesis - follow the link in my prior note or go to his site/forum as listed in his posts.

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Postby douglassnow » Tue Sep 23, 2008 2:14 pm

Pazuzu P. Sasquatch wrote:Interesting and fascinating stuff. But unless you call things by their proper names, words don't mean much. A guy who engages in sex exclusively with other men is not "straight" in any sense that really communicates anything language-wise.


But what is it that makes a gay definition of "straight" ("heterosexual") the only proper and correct one? As used by the majority of men who have sex with men, "straight" does in fact mean "married to women." It also means "not gay or effeminate, or in any way not masculine." Once and for all can we, please, abandon the notion that sex between men necessarily has something to do with women--or effeminacy? There are those, both gay and straight, who cannot conceive of sex as anything but XX+XY, or an approximation thereof--and for themselves, no doubt, this weary persistence of the feminine holds true--but for Tristan Taormino and his shadowy cohorts nothing could be further from the truth. When they advertise in Craigslist "Str8 seeks Str8, No Fats or Fems," they are, for once telling the truth--though not, of course, to their wives.
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Postby Pazuzu P. Sasquatch » Tue Sep 23, 2008 3:02 pm

douglassnow wrote:Once and for all can we, please, abandon the notion that sex between men necessarily has something to do with women--or effeminacy? etc. etc. etc.


You're attributing views to me that I do not, in fact, hold.

That is all.
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Postby dracuscalico » Tue Sep 23, 2008 5:32 pm

Pazuzu P. Sasquatch wrote:
douglassnow wrote:Once and for all can we, please, abandon the notion that sex between men necessarily has something to do with women--or effeminacy? etc. etc. etc.


You're attributing views to me that I do not, in fact, hold.

That is all.


I think it's simply a matter of semantics as to the "current" definition of straight. For some people it's how you behave publicly, for others it's what you do privately.

For example who would people call gayer? The effeminate heterosexual male hairdresser who has never been with a man? Or the masculine construction worker, who's secretly doin' every guy in town?

It would depend upon who's seeing WHAT, when they call it as they see it.

Probably the opinion that matters the most is the one held by the person himself as to where he thinks(feels) he fits on the continuum compared to everyone else.
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Postby Pazuzu P. Sasquatch » Tue Sep 23, 2008 8:19 pm

dracuscalico wrote:[Probably the opinion that matters the most is the one held by the person himself as to where he thinks(feels) he fits on the continuum compared to everyone else.


Therefore, if I decide to define myself as a cat, facilities open to the public are obliged to provide me with a litter box? :shock:

Don't think so. You say toe-may-toe. I say "Um. You're gay, dude."

Words can be squishy, granted. But sometimes ya just gotta stomp on the fuckers.

(Oh, and I think anyone with all the info would say that the construction worker was the gayer of the two.)
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Postby dracuscalico » Wed Sep 24, 2008 12:04 am

:shock: well you might have to prove you're a cat beyond reasonable doubt, but even then they might still make you scratch in the sand. Right now I'm scratchin' my head...

Should I have said where he fits on the "sexual" continuum instead?

The point I was, perhaps not doing the best job in conveying, is that arguing about words, and everyone's definition of them could go on endlessly when people simply dismiss one anothers' reference points based upon their own.

I was trying to lend a neutral perspective, because you guys had dug in your heels. But you know what they say, try to break up a dogfight and you're gonna get bit.
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Postby dracuscalico » Wed Sep 24, 2008 12:04 am

:shock: well you might have to prove you're a cat beyond reasonable doubt, but even then they might still make you scratch in the sand. Right now I'm scratchin' my head...

Should I have said where he fits on the "sexual" continuum instead?

The point I was, perhaps not doing the best job in conveying, is that arguing about words, and everyone's definition of them could go on endlessly when people simply dismiss one anothers' reference points based upon their own.

I was trying to lend a neutral perspective, because you guys had dug in your heels. But you know what they say, try to break up a dogfight and you're gonna get bit.
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Postby masculinity » Wed Sep 24, 2008 4:25 am

Pazuzu P. Sasquatch wrote:
dracuscalico wrote:[Probably the opinion that matters the most is the one held by the person himself as to where he thinks(feels) he fits on the continuum compared to everyone else.


Therefore, if I decide to define myself as a cat, facilities open to the public are obliged to provide me with a litter box? :shock:

Don't think so. You say toe-may-toe. I say "Um. You're gay, dude."

Words can be squishy, granted. But sometimes ya just gotta stomp on the fuckers.

(Oh, and I think anyone with all the info would say that the construction worker was the gayer of the two.)

I can narrate the following case study about how the word gay or homo is understood in traditional India. In a series of workshops that the society YAAR took with young men in three north Indian cities of Delhi, Lucknow and Kanpur, they asked the participants about their perception of what is 'gay' or 'homo'.

First they gave the example of a popular TV comedy serial, a character called 'Dilruba', who was limp wristed and effeminate, but was singularly after women, eventhough he was already married to a popular movie actress. The particpants universally termed 'him' as 'homo'. it did not matter to them that his sexual interest was only towards women.

The participants would then be asked if two masculine men have sex exclusively with each other and have never been with women, if they would be termed as 'homosexuals', and the answer was a STRONG 'no'.

So, it seems your definitions are not all that 'foolproof'. Its only that they have been hammered into men's heads in the West. However, the basic attitude of Western straight men still seems to be the same. So, on a discussion site, I heard a straight man putting down 'gays' as saying he enjoys f***g gays -- and apparently this did not in any way tinge his straight identity. The guy was spanish by the way. Perhaps, American notions are way different.

Officials definitions are fixed by those who control the society. But how people eventually use it, is closer to the truth, even though that may be affected if the society invests heavily in forwarding a particular definition.
Last edited by masculinity on Mon Sep 29, 2008 11:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
Gays are a different species altogether from men (and women). They're not "men who like men," they are "third gender who like men."

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Postby masculinity » Wed Sep 24, 2008 4:32 am

Pazuzu P. Sasquatch wrote:Therefore, if I decide to define myself as a cat, facilities open to the public are obliged to provide me with a litter box? :shock:

I think even worse of a situation would be when those in power, let's take an example, (in India) decide to call a white man a cat, or lets say cow... by forwarding a silly definition like, "all cows are white, and so anyone who is white is a cow", and then forcibly put every white man in India into living with the cows...

I can see, that most white men in India, if they'd have no choice, would rather paint themselves brown and pretend to be darker skinned than accept living with the cows.

Same with Gay and Straight.
Gays are a different species altogether from men (and women). They're not "men who like men," they are "third gender who like men."

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Postby Pazuzu P. Sasquatch » Wed Sep 24, 2008 7:08 am

Dracuscalico --

I was actually going to continue this discussion with you. . . . but sure enough, just as it's starting to get kinda fun. . . .

Think ya know what I'm sayin.' :wink:
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Postby douglassnow » Wed Sep 24, 2008 2:01 pm

Yet once again, Masculinity comes riding in on his off-topic hobbyhorse, seeking to terminate any discussion that doesn't reflect his own bizarre self-centered preoccupations. God damn it. May I just kindly say to Masculinity: SHUT THE F*CK UP! You've got your own goddamned thread and discussion group--excised from your former derailment of this topic--Why don't you go back to it?
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Postby douglassnow » Wed Sep 24, 2008 2:40 pm

Pazuzu P. Sasquatch wrote:
dracuscalico wrote:[Probably the opinion that matters the most is the one held by the person himself as to where he thinks(feels) he fits on the continuum compared to everyone else.


Therefore, if I decide to define myself as a cat, facilities open to the public are obliged to provide me with a litter box? :shock:

Don't think so. You say toe-may-toe. I say "Um. You're gay, dude."

Words can be squishy, granted. But sometimes ya just gotta stomp on the fuckers.

(Oh, and I think anyone with all the info would say that the construction worker was the gayer of the two.)


Your analogy (of "straight" to "cat") is not valid. Our construction worker--let's say he's one of the 10% of all self-identified "straight" men who only have sex with other men--is not proposing anything so illogical as the change of species you attribute to him. He probably doesn't know (or know that he knows) any gay men. You, if you are gay, might well call him gay, and tell him that the definition of "gay" is a man who has sex with other men. And, if he is a reasonable construction worker, he will agree--if that's all you mean by it. But what are the chances that that's all you mean by it? The reason he calls himself, and thinks of himself, as "straight" is that his only non-straight characteristic, in his own honest evaluation of himself, is having sex with other "straight" men. What he has always thought "gay" meant was something--well, weak, nasty and effeminate. Are you sure that's not what you mean when you say "gay"?
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Postby Pazuzu P. Sasquatch » Wed Sep 24, 2008 4:16 pm

By "gay," I mean "sexually attracted to other men." When I mean "effeminate," that's the word I use.

It's pretty simple, really. . . .

And I'm sure that many "straight" guys who suck dick DO employ the kind of logic you're describing. I think it borders on flake-itude though, and pretty obviously so. (It's also the mentality that gives rise to the Larry Craigs of this world.) Nobody has to agree with me if they don't want to, but that's what I think.

Oh, and while I'm posting --

Dear masculinity: Please take your retarded bullshit elsewhere. I resent having to waste my time scrolling past your posts in search of opinions not written by idiots. Thanks.
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